Brewbound Frontlines: The Movement to End Misogyny and Misconduct in the Beer Industry

Justin Fonte [00:12] Hello and welcome back to Brewbound Frontlines, our monthly conversation with leaders and retailers across the beer industry about topics affecting their business. I'm Justin Fonte back in the Brewbound studio and joined remotely by my colleague, Brewbound editor Justin Kendall. Hey, Justin, how are you?

Speaker 2 [00:26] I'm OK. How are you doing, Jess?

Justin Fonte [00:28] I'm pretty good. Uh, day two in the studio, it's, it's very fancy, much fancier than my living room, so.

Speaker 2 [00:34] I am jealous of your fancy setup. Yeah,

Justin Fonte [00:36] I decided the entire beer industry no longer needed to see my home bar with illustration of the Jersey Devil on it, so we'll definitely do this from now on. So, let's dive in. Our conversation today is an important one, and we've got some of the most influential women in the movement here to discuss it, uh, as I'm sure just about everybody knows, the beer industry has undergone a reckoning with the way that it has treated women and female identifying people working within it. Now that thousands of stories of abuse, harassment, and mistreatment are out in the open, our guests are all working in different ways to make lasting, meaningful changes. So, here to discuss the events of the past two months and everything going forward with us today are Brianne Allen, the production manager of Notch Brewing in Salem, Massachusetts. Hey Brianne, how are you? Good, thanks for having me. Oh, thank you so much for being here with us. We also have Ren Navarro, the founder of Beer Diversity, based in Toronto, Canada. Hey, Ren, how are you? I'm

Speaker 3 [01:31] good. How are you?

Justin Fonte [01:32] Good, thanks for joining. We also have Jen Blair, who is now the beer and Quality education manager at Orpheus Brewing in Atlanta, Georgia. Hey, Jen.

Speaker 3 [01:42] Hey, how are you doing? Thanks for having me. Oh,

Justin Fonte [01:44] I'm good, thanks. How are you?

Speaker 3 [01:45] I'm doing really well.

Justin Fonte [01:46] Great, so glad you're here. And we also have Ash Elliott, who is the founder of Women of the Bevolution, an advocacy group working to support and further the careers of women in the craft beer, wine, and spirits industries, and Ash is in Los Angeles. What's up,

Speaker 4 [01:59] Ash? Hey, how you doing? It's good to be here.

Justin Fonte [02:03] So 2 months ago, Brianne posted a simple question on her personal Instagram account. What sexist comments have you experienced? And in doing this, she unwittingly opened the floodgates to the decades of pent up frustration and pain women in the beer industry have been carrying. In the weeks that followed, industry employees, mainly women, shared their experiences of sexual harassment, assault, and discrimination. In some cases, the uncovering of these stories led to the resignations of brewery founders and executives. We saw major changes at breweries such as Modern Times, and Tired Hands, and a few more, but there have been a lot of other breweries where many stories have come out that that not much has changed. So, we're gonna talk about all these different things today, but first, let's set the scene. Brianne, can you tell us about the day that led to asking you that question on Instagram? Yeah,

Speaker 5 [02:50] uh, so it was actually one of the first days that restrictions were lifted, and we were like allowed to like be at work with other employees, and we headed down to our new location, just excited to be like out of the house and out of quarantine for once. And it's funny cause the past 5 years I've been doing this locally, and it's been making a big impact in Massachusetts, um. And I kind of just forgot about it over the last like year and a half because I wasn't around sexism cause I was in my fucking house. Uh, and so, and then I was just so mad. The first day I left, I went to build our new brew house at our new facility, and I got like So many random comments from just like guys on the site and I just like Totally forgot how prevalent like sexism is just cause I haven't been working and uh yeah, so I just was like, Is anyone else experiencing this, or did everyone forget this is a thing, and so it just made me so mad. I just started posting.

Justin Fonte [03:51] Yeah, and the stories came in from everywhere, and I know it was really, I assume it was pretty overwhelming for you. So how did it feel to become the conduit for hundreds of women's trauma?

Speaker 5 [04:02] Pretty awful. Pretty awful. It's still, um, pretty traumatic right now, uh, just reliving basically all of these, not even just women, uh, everyone's trauma that has sent it to me. I feel like I'm reliving all of mine, and then everyone that's reading their traumas are reliving their traumas, and I feel like we're all just in Uh, like a state of mourning right now, and I haven't really shaken it yet. I'm still only halfway through the messages that I've gotten. Um, I was telling Justin earlier, I'm Hitting messages I received 8 weeks ago, and this has been going on way longer than that. So I don't, Instagram is really poorly organized, so I can't tell how many are actually hidden in my requests. But every time I delete 50, it just still says there's over 100 left in there. So, uh, yeah, it's terrible. It's a terrible feeling, but I'm glad that uh it's helping people, at least I hope it is, you

Justin Fonte [05:01] know. I'm sure it is, you know, it's, it's traumatic, but also cathartic. I know for some people, the stories that poured out weren't very surprising. Uh, I know I personally was like, yes, of course, this is what's going on, but I've also worked in the industry for 10 years, and women have encountered abuse like this across several industries for centuries. Were there any accounts that you, uh, that came to you that were so egregious that they shocked you?

Speaker 5 [05:25] Yeah, I mean anything that concerns like sexual assault and rape and that hadn't been resolved or talked about or just completely ignored, we're all very, uh, obviously shocking. It's like my worst fear. And just reading people's accounts of it, it's just like I was, it's having nightmares like constantly like about being raped, and it's like these women actually lived it. And so I think the one that shocked me the most, there were a couple, um, the one from the Master Brewers Association where Uh, a woman went and took a class there, and then she was raped by a fellow classmate from some other brewery, and then she just never told anybody and um because she didn't think anyone would believe her, and I went to that class and I was one of 4 women in a class of 50, and I was just like, that could have fucking happened to me. Like I was, I did, was at the same exact situation. So I think that one struck home for me the most out of all of that.

Speaker 2 [06:28] That's horrific. Uh, I, I, there's nothing more I can say about that, um, right,

Speaker 5 [06:34] especially when you're there with nobody else around you and you don't know all these people that you're literally bunking with for two weeks, and there's no one. There for you to talk to or like anything, so, terrifying.

Speaker 2 [06:46] And that's so much of the stories that have come out, it, it, I mean, we are about ready to go back on the road to events such as CBC and, and there were a number of stories about, uh, women who have been assaulted at those events as well. And, and so it's, it's definitely raising a question of how we can provide safe spaces when we're going back out on the road to these massive events. So, it's switching gears a little bit, uh, Jen, you saw all of this unfolding on Instagram and realized you were unconvinced that actionable change could occur at your former employer. Uh, you publicly tendered your resignation and left the company. That, that is, that cannot be an easy decision to make, but it is a stand that you took. How did you arrive at that decision?

Speaker 3 [07:40] You know, it was really um It wasn't just with, you know, with Brian posting the stories, it was a culmination. Um, that had been building for over a year of seeing issues within the company, as I stated in my, uh, my resignation letter. Repeatedly seeing instances of racism and sexism, not being heard, not being remediated, pushed under the rug, being minimized, and, you know, continuing to push the leadership and say, Hey, I noticed that you never scheduled that diversity training. You said you were going to schedule, why not? When, when will you be scheduling it? And, you know, repeatedly running up against those walls of not receiving answers or Um, I mean, really just not receiving answers or getting, um, pushback when I'm, when I would bring up ideas and let's do this, and have we considered this. And I had been talking about various experiences with women at the brewery. There weren't that many women who worked there. There aren't that many women who work there now. And individually and as groups, we would share stories. And so it was one of those things where I knew it wasn't just me. That it was happening to and also hearing women throughout the company sharing similar experiences that they didn't know other people in other departments were having the same issues. And, you know, for me, realizing that it was a prevalent issue, um, it wasn't just happening to me. It wasn't only in my department, it was in every department. And talking with other advocates about sharing these stories, and it's kind of the same thing that once you share them all and see them all in the same place, like Jess said, there's so much that you're like, oh yeah, that is That always happens, and why do we all think that this is OK? Why do we continue to think that this is acceptable for us to be treated this way, for our employers to be treating us this way? And You know, finally, that, that week, I sent an email at the beginning of the week to the leadership saying, this is happening on Brianne's page. I'm a woman within this company. What, what are you doing to ensure that I'm safe? What are you doing to ensure all of your employees are safe? And given my track record of challenging these kinds of ideas within the company, it didn't really come as a surprise to anyone, but the response was, well, we learned about this last Friday, and we've been aware of it. And I said, OK, great. What conversations have you had? You, nothing silence, just we've been aware of it. And, you know, it was like, OK, well, you've had like 4 days now, um, so what, what are you doing about it? And the response was, you know, well, we're going to have you form a committee of women, and you can tell us what actions to take. I said, that's not, you're asking me to educate you on how you were mistreating me. That's not how it works. What are you specifically as the leadership doing? What personal responsibility are you taking? And the actual, the, you know, the responses continued to be, well, you'll form a committee of women, and also, uh, we'll get training for managers, and, you know, it's, It was all of the same thing that I had seen repeated the year before with the Black Lives Matter movement, and, you know, I had known better this time around, uh, so I continued pushing and saying, What are we doing though, but what are you doing though? And receiving the same kind of responses that I've seen. So I knew how it was going to play out, and being an advocate for women within the industry, outside of my job as well as within my job, I wasn't going to be part of that farce, and I, you know, I couldn't stay there and then still go out and, and face all of the women that I face in the industry to encourage them to be involved in the industry, knowing that, you know, my company is rotten from the roots and isn't actually dedicated to making a change. Um, so it certainly wasn't an easy decision, um, leading up to it. I, or I wouldn't say that it was a, It wasn't a hard decision. Once that was clear that it was my option, you know, it was all of the days leading up to that, where I was continuing to push to say, OK, if you don't care, just say you don't care. And that way, we're all on the same page, and it's all out in the open, but we don't need to be doing this performative thing because your employees need you to do better for them, and everyone can see through performative allyship.

Speaker 2 [12:23] We know you're not alone, uh, in, in being in these situations. So what advice would you give to other women in the industry or anyone who, who finds themselves in a similar position?

Speaker 3 [12:39] You know, it's really difficult, and I know I've spoken with women who are still at, you know, at their employers where they've had these similar experiences, and there's, you know, there's a lot of reasons, a lot of completely justifiable reasons why people need to stay in the jobs that they're in. And also, you're not guaranteed that it's going to be better somewhere else. Um, so, one of the things that women can do, I think, one, is talk to each other. About it because there is a lot of effort spent, particularly in some companies with leadership to isolate you and try to compartmentalize your experience. So you do think that this is only happening to me and it's not OK for me to talk to other people about it, but sharing those stories helps create the solidarity and makes you see that there is a pattern. And, you know, doing that, talking with each other. Is one thing you can do. Ask your employer for your handbook, you know, know what your retaliation policy is, know what the harassment policy is, know what the reporting structure is. And at this point, that shouldn't surprise anybody in the brewing industry to be asked those questions, and they should have that ready for you. And, you know, if you were In ownership right now, and you haven't made those things available for your employees, you need to do that right away. Um, and really with employees, one of the things I've seen the most is them not understanding how much power they actually have. You know, if a, if a taproom manager doesn't show up to work for one day, uh, that's probably inconvenient for a few people. If an entire taproom doesn't show up to work one day, that taproom is shut down. And I can guarantee they'll listen to you really quickly if, you know, you not only understand how much power you have, but also exercise that power.

Justin Fonte [14:39] Yeah, I think there's one thing that we've really seen in the past couple months, and it's that if, if you're being made to feel like you should be quiet, there's probably a reason for it.

Speaker 3 [14:47] Exactly.

Justin Fonte [14:48] Yeah, now, a lot of what we've, you know, seen since May is that women are at the base of this, women are just fighting for a place in the industry and want to be seen as equal contributors, deserving of the same dignity that men receive, and Ren, in your experience running Beer. Diversity. You encounter all sorts of clients throughout, you know, beer, wine, and spirits, but how receptive do you think breweries are going to be to receiving this message?

Speaker 6 [15:10] Uh, now it's incredibly important. Uh, but when I started, you know, 3.5 years ago, they, people said, we don't need it. It's, it's fine. Look, we're, we're good. We're one big happy family. Like, why are we, why are we talking about diversity and why are, you know, why is this a concern? And, you know, pandemic hits and things are happening, and then, you know, all of these stories are coming out that we all knew about, and suddenly, They're just, you know, banging down the door saying, oh, actually, I guess you were right all that time ago, and it's like, yeah, I've been in the industry for almost a decade. It's always been like this. It's always been a problem. Uh, so I think that they are becoming receptive, some out of necessity, and some are just realizing like, yeah, it's a thing that we have to, we have to put on the, the front burner cause we can't, we can't ignore it, or, you know, people are demanding so much more. I mean, like Jen said, if your tapper and walks out, like, you're kind of screwed. Like, you know, so it's, yeah, I think it's uh it's, it's definitely changed.

Justin Fonte [16:03] Absolutely. I mean, mutiny as a, a thought exercise, I think uh we've seen it in a few instances lately. So, you know, we've tried to, we've watched the beer industry try to grapple with social injustice issues before. Brenda, are there any reasons to believe that this time is gonna be different?

Speaker 6 [16:20] Uh, I'm cautiously optimistic, and, and I wanna say that yes, it's gonna be different, but deep down inside I'm like, it's not gonna be different. Um, too many people still get a pass. When, when this came out, the amount of guys that I know, that I know who have seen what I've gone through for the last decade said, holy shit, can you imagine this? Can you believe this happened? And it was like, buddy, like, how many women do you know in the industry, and how many women in the industry do you know that aren't in the industry anymore? Um, and I think that there was this definite Uprising of shock and horror, and what do we do now, and those same people who yelled very loudly, what do we do now have moved on to something new. Um, and I think that it's, you know, again left to those who are affected by it in the most negative of ways to be the ones who have to keep pushing it forward. Uh, I think that you are speaking to us for a reason because we are the people who will not stop talking about it, but it's where are the guys, where, where are the, the owners, where are the people who are in these positions of privilege, you know, how many months in. And, and again, this is how many months in after how many years of us going through this. Uh, I, I love that people are surprised by it, and it's like, are you also surprised that the sun rises and sun sets every day? Because this is just the thing that constantly happens. Um, so I'm cautiously optimistic that we'll keep going, but I think the reason we will keep talking about it is because of women like us. And, and I, I think that we would all love to take a nap for a day or 2 or 3 or a month, and have someone else step up and do it, and that is the point that I don't think will happen. I don't think that someone will step up and say, you know what, y'all look tired, I got you.

Speaker 2 [17:53] So speaking of stepping up, Ash, what can individuals do to get through to unreceptive leaders about issues of gender violence and equality in the industry?

Speaker 4 [18:05] Yeah, no, great question. Um, you know, I think in terms of what, what, you know, are you, are you asking like individuals meaning consumers or like staff or industry professionals?

Speaker 2 [18:17] I'd say both, because what we've, what we've seen and talked about is sort of the, uh, unified voice can make a change, but Whether that's employee, but also at the consumer level, and that's something Jess and I are also wondering about too, is because We need engaged consumers to also step up in this, and the question is how engaged are they as well, um, and how we can get them engaged if they're not.

Speaker 4 [18:49] Yeah, so that's the thing, the consumers have so much power, right? When it comes down to it, you know, consumers are going to help us change this industry. They can, they can ask the tough questions, they could, you know, go to breweries and see what they're doing to create these, you know, safe and inclusive spaces. They can, you know, look at the code of conduct and see if it matches, uh, you know, with how it is in the taproom, and how their social media is, and how their website is, and all that, and what they're doing in the community. Um, and, and that's the thing, like if consumers are not engaged, um, you know, that's a huge problem because they're pretty much investing in companies that are toxic environments, and they're, they're, I mean, you know, I kind of, the question is like, as a consumer, how, how would you feel working in a, in a place like this, you know, like, that's what they should think about, like, do I wanna invest my money in this, in this brewery? Um, how would I feel working here? Would it be safe for me? Would it be safe for my friends? Like, would I have the proper resources and the support? Um, so I think that's how, um, you know, consumers again can keep kind of these businesses accountable.

Justin Fonte [20:02] Uh, question for, for all of you actually, uh, people who might not pay as much attention to this as, you know, the six of us do, maybe might sense that the momentum has slowed. So do you guys believe that the momentum for the movement has stalled, and if so, why? And if it has slowed, how can we reignite it? Brian, judging from the sound of your Instagram inbox, that's definitely not the case. So what do you, what do you think the, the greater industry is perceiving the, the momentum to be right now?

Speaker 5 [20:29] Well, that's not necessarily true. So I, though I do have thousands of messages still in there, they're from back when this first started. They all just accumulated to the point where I couldn't get to them until now. And even now, I'm only getting to like 5 or 10 a day, because it's just so much. Um, I think it's stalling, cause I think a lot of people like to pretend they give a shit about things, and then when it's too exhausting for them or it's not convenient anymore, they just stop and hope that it goes away. And uh yeah, I mean, it's happened for every single national beer collab there's ever been. It's every time, it's just like news. It's popular for a week and then it's gone. No one really cares. Sorry.

Justin Fonte [21:16] Yeah, no, it's a great, a great, if very depressing point. Um, how can we reignite the momentum?

Speaker 5 [21:24] Well, we're hoping with the collaboration we can, or the continuing of posting the stories and just talking about it. We've gotten a lot of requests um for public speaking or Uh, different organizations and companies have been reaching out to be like, can you help us? We actually want to change and not just talk about it on Instagram. We actually need like help. Like, can you point us in like directions that we can make a change? And the people that actually go out of their way to figure those things out seem to be Continuing the conversation within their company and with their consumers, which I feel like is very uh proactive.

Justin Fonte [22:06] Jen, what are you sensing in Atlanta? What does the general momentum of this current movement seem to be in the south?

Speaker 3 [22:12] In Atlanta, um, one of the things, so I've been here for almost 2 years now, and one of the things that's blown me away is how different the Atlanta culture and the Atlanta beer culture is from other cities where I've lived and other beer communities I've been a part of. And I see, perhaps it's also because I'm here and I'm involved day to day with other people in the industry who have a vested interest in moving the conversation forward. Um, but I see more people continuing to push for, you know, historically excluded people to be involved in the brewing industry, um, as, you know, throughout the industry from consumers to being in the brew house. I think that is, again, I'm, I'm coming from kind of a biased point of view. I do agree with Brianne. There's been, I get disheartened to see that. You know, once sharing stories didn't seem as salacious, people stopped paying attention, and I frequently remind people, hey, every single woman you know in the beer industry can tell you 10 stories like what you saw shared, and you need to remember that. And I have seen people who have changed their purchasing behavior based on stories that have come out. I've had people check in with me to say, hey, what, what about this place? Uh, is this, is this, is this on the OK list? And I've seen the community checking in with each other to say, what breweries haven't been called out? What breweries have a good reputation because that's where I'm going to go from now on. So I don't, I don't think that it has. It hasn't stalled. I think that the, all of the behind the scenes work is still moving forward in some, you know, in some places. I do agree that, you know, like my former employer, a week after I resigned was saying that this had all blown over and it was something they didn't need to worry about anymore. Um, but that's not, I'm hoping that that's the exception. And not the rule. I know at my current employer, it's something that we're actively addressing, you know, throughout the company. Uh, I just, I think it will be interesting in a few months, particularly as the collaborations start to get released. To remind people, hey, go back and check on those breweries who posted a statement the same way we were reminding people, hey, go back and check on those breweries who posted a black square a year ago, see where they are, you know, go take a look at their, uh, their About Us page at their employees and see, see if you can gauge what kind of priority they've given to actually being inclusive within their hiring practices. Uh, and I think consumers are becoming more aware and like Ash said, aware of the power that they actually wield to continue to challenge these people and say, you know, this is a crowded marketplace. You need to earn my patronage now. Um, so I don't, It's not as big of a splash every single day as it, it was, but I, I do hold out hope that, that we're not seeing all of the work in the background, which is what we want, right? Like that's, that's the progress we want is all of these employers to come out and say, we revised our code of conduct. This is the training we've given to people. Yes, we should have been doing it all along, but we're doing it now, and this is how we've decided to move forward.

Justin Fonte [25:48] So I know we said we would take this question to all four of you and, and Ren and Ash, absolutely, you guys weigh in on the, the momentum aspect, but in the interest of momentum of a conversation, now that we've brought up Brave Noise, I do want to dive into that cause I think that's a really important thing to make sure we tell our audience all about. So, Brave Noise is a global collaboration beer announced earlier this month. All of you are working on it. Unlike previous collaboration beers with philanthropic goals, participating breweries are required to submit their code of conduct. So, Brienne, walk us through the creation of this project and the thinking that went into it.

Speaker 5 [26:23] It wasn't, it definitely wasn't my idea. Ash probably knows about it way more than I

Justin Fonte [26:28] do. Ash, tell us all about

Speaker 4 [26:30] it. This was, was all Brienne's idea, and, um, you know, she had brewed this beer, um, and people were asking like, hey, like, is this gonna be a collaborative brew? Can we brew it, you know, we wanna, we wanna do something too. And, um, you know, Brienne had this great idea, well, why don't we, you know, let's make it a global collab, let's create this initiative. And she had come to me because she knew I was kind of creating all these resources for women in the industry, and I was just trying to connect women with other women, and so we kind of, you know, brainstormed a bit of like, you know, what do we want out of this? How can we make this collab different than the other collabs that have been out there, like Black Is Beautiful and All Together, um, and You know, though we personally cannot hold the breweries accountable, we, we have framed it in a way that there are steps and actions that they have to take. So, you know, the first off, it's, you know, it's committing to the long term work for change in the industry. It's, um, like having a code of conduct, and, you know, making sure it checks all these boxes, that it is focused on safe and inclusive environments for staff and consumers, and submitting that. And obviously, you know, breweries have been coming to us about, like, questions about it. We have a great HR resource, Rebecca Weaver from HR Uprise, who has created a guide for them and is available for consulting. So, we wanna give them all the tools to, to create this and make sure it does reflect. Their, their environment, their business, their values. Um, so, obviously not everyone's gonna have that at once. We just ask that they create this and have it read like available publicly, whether it's QR code, uh, on the beer, if it's publicly in the taproom, on the website, by the time they release, uh, the Brave Noise beer. Um, and then the other step is donating, um, a majority of the proceeds to a verified nonprofit, and we have a list of all these nonprofits on the website. Um, and if anyone else has one that reflects the mission, there, they can submit it, we'll look it over, we'll review it, we could add it to our list. But these nonprofits are, are, you know, advocating for, for safe spaces, they're creating resources for hospitality workers, um, they're providing, you know, mental health support, um, sexual harassment training, diversity training. So, um, you know, it kind of reflects this initiative and what we want for this industry, and that's how That's how I feel that this collab is different than others.

Justin Fonte [29:07] I just want to make one point that I love how both of you attempted to not take credit and give credit to the other person, cause I've been in in other jobs in past lives. I've been in plenty of meetings where guys basically fall all over each other to to take the credit for the good ideas. So,

Speaker 3 [29:23] great collaboration.

Speaker 4 [29:25] Thank you. Yeah, it's, it's great. I'm grateful to be part of it. So thank you, Brand, for bringing me in. Yeah,

Speaker 5 [29:32] so we actually got a few people reaching out to us asking if we were gonna make, I remember, um, our brewer Jule and I came out with Brave Noise, and a lot of different breweries were reaching out to me. Is this recipe gonna be available, what have you. And then Stout Collective, who actually facilitated those other three global collabs, reached out and they were like, this could be the next one. And we actually turned it down for a couple of weeks cause we were like, Every time somebody does a global lab like this, everyone finds out later that nobody actually donated and then like like racist behavior was still happening in breweries that created Black is Beautiful, and like they kept the money and like, so we were like we don't want to do this because we don't want to perpetuate this like whitewashing of Just anti-sexist, anti-racist, pro-equality behavior just because they made a fucking beer that says that, uh, this is what we believe. So we're trying to make it so that consumers and other people in the industry can hold these breweries accountable cause it's, you can't just post something on fucking Instagram and then expect people to just believe you and be able to see your actual like actions to make a difference. Not saying that this will solve that, but at least they would care enough to try, I guess.

Speaker 2 [30:58] So how many breweries have signed up so far to take part?

Speaker 5 [31:02] Well, so, uh, we're giving it a couple of weeks before we dive into the list just because like even Notch couldn't really sign up, uh, yet because we don't even have like A code of conduct written for like consume consumer views. We have obviously an employee handbook that outlines all of that, but we wanted to really take the time to make sure we had like a meaningful outline of what we wanted the consumers to know as well as like our employees. So we actually haven't even registered yet because we're just like so into picking the right charity we want, trying to figure out how much money it's going to generate. Trying to create an event, getting the ingredients and the code of conduct all together at one time so we can release it as like one package. So we'll probably start releasing um the breweries that have signed up on the actual website so people can keep checking in, just like the Black is Beautiful one did it's at the bottom. So, but a lot of breweries are, you know, realizing they don't have a code of conduct. So it's going to take a while for them to draft one up to be able to participate.

Speaker 4 [32:06] Yeah, and to Brand's point, like, we knew that it was gonna take a few weeks for, for everyone to just get their ducks in a row, so, so to speak, and, but tons of breweries have reached out. They've been emailing us, they've been, uh, direct messaging me and Bran, and just, you know, they just wanna, they want us to know that we're, they're gonna apply, they're gonna do it, we're just still figuring out, we wanna make sure we have the code of conduct, we wanna make sure we have the resources before we are submitting, and, um, and even like home brewers, we've actually had like, Tons of homebrewers and uh thank you, Jen, who uh helped create the homebrew recipe and uh also Socal Serviceros, uh, my homebrew club here in LA. Um, and I think with those efforts, it's just kind of like, just immediately like the whole community just exploded and was like, yes, I wanna be involved. So, um, so it's been, it's been great feedback. Obviously it's gonna take a minute for, you know, the, the breweries to kind of submit, um, but, and then we also have a clause for beer drinkers, how they can, you know, get involved and keep a lookout and, and, and ask their local brewery if they're, um, gonna be participating.

Justin Fonte [33:13] So I want to get back to the subject of keeping the momentum moving on, on, on the movement. Ren, what are you noticing in Canada? Are people still concerned about the, the news that's come out over the past two months, or do you think people are starting to move on?

Speaker 6 [33:26] Split. I think it's, you know, the beer nerds of the world who are really dialed into what's happening with craft breweries, um, are noticing it. I, I still, I mean, I think that that the momentum is slowing because the world is on fire and there's like 8 million other things that people will be distracted by, um, but I always hope that they kind of come back to it, but I think that the people in the general public are like, cool, what happened? I'm still gonna go and buy that beer. Um, you know, name, name any big brewery that's had a, a large kerfuffle in the last few years, and they're still running, and they're still super popular. So again, you know, cautiously optimistic, but I, I'm with Brienne, like people are just like, yeah, that was terrible. So what's next? Like, you know, and it's just, it's this thing that if you are not in the industry and you're not seeing it every day, you've forgotten about it. And I think that the, the, the real challenge is how do we keep this in front of people's faces and how do we keep it in front of those Who are faithful to breweries, and those are people who are not like, you know, the craft beer nerds who are like on, you know, untapped and checking everything in. It's the guy who goes and buys 124 every 3 days of the same thing, who doesn't understand that he's supporting someone who's absolutely terrible, and how do we get them to understand that and I think that's part of the big challenge is that we need to stop screaming into the vacuum that we all reside in.

Speaker 2 [34:42] One thing I'm sort of wondering is, how do we strike the balance, uh, or even consumers, how do they strike a balance of supporting the employees that have risen up at some of these breweries, like at tired Hands, or, or modern times, while not supporting the old leadership, because, I mean, there are a lot of folks that are left behind, uh, trying to, to right a ship, and so you, you've got these breweries that Have, you know, besmirched names, and It, I, I, I wonder how do we support those employees?

Speaker 6 [35:19] I don't think there's a happy medium, like, to be honest, right? Like, I don't think you're gonna be like, well, I want to support them cause my best friend still works there. I think part of it is, is you as a consumer, don't leave it to us to make the stand, you know, say something. Like you got a bunch of followers, even even 25 followers, who cares? Start saying this isn't cool and my friend has stayed because they have to stay, so this is not OK. Like, I mean, just talk about it.

Speaker 5 [35:44] Yeah, it's a huge gray area and I've been in constant contact with all of the employees at Tired Hands, which is just Still completely unresolved. And so I even have consumers messaging me being like, I really like tired hands, but like, fuck that. Um, but also, we really want to help the employees, like what do we do? And so I asked the employees, what do you want me to say when like someone asks me that? And they say, well, please keep buying it so we can have a job still. And which is super important. We don't want to, you know, penalize people that haven't done anything wrong. Um, but at the same time, it's like how do you, yeah, sure, the CEO said that they stepped down or like the owner is and during, you know, daily operations, yeah, they're still making money, but I think it's important that as long as those people aren't like hurting people anymore, like whatever, as long as they're not there assaulting and abusing people. Then I would say it's totally fine to keep supporting those breweries as long as they're trying to make a change and stop the abuse. That being said, it doesn't help that like tired hands owners like jumped ship a couple of weeks ago, waited for shit to die down, and now they're like sending out email. Mails to their employees begging to come back because they think everything has died down. The employees are just like, are you fucking joking me right now? Like we told you, like, we won't be here if you come back. And they're still trying to come back because they think it's all going to blow over. And they haven't changed a single fucking thing. So Honestly, gray area, hard to say. Support the employees, offer them a job somewhere else. Exactly, don't know what else to say about it.

Speaker 4 [37:28] Let's get them new jobs. That's, that's what we should be doing. We should be sharing their stories, looking out for them, and trying to connect them with a, a place that is not toxic and, and hurtful.

Justin Fonte [37:40] One thing I keep coming back to is like I myself had a a pretty untenable and uncomfortable work situation, obviously many years and lifetimes ago, and I couldn't leave because I have a mortgage and student loan payments, and all these things, and it was like, this is causing me such great distress and anxiety that the one thing that would make my life better right away is just to be able to not have to come to work here every day. I wonder if there's some kind of like mutual aid fund we can set up that would help support women and allow them to free themselves from these terrible toxic situations. I know that was something I heard from a few women at Boulevard when when all of that happened in January. A lot of them were saying it was horrible, but it was my job and I needed it. So, I don't know if that's something that, if there's organizations out there that can get put on the brave noise list, if you have one, let us know.

Speaker 4 [38:27] Um, yeah, just to your point, actually, on our list, we do have a few that are working, uh, directly with hospitality workers. I know during COVID, they were doing something like that, um, another round, another rally, and also hospitality action. And personally, I'm also trying to figure out how can I either fundraise or provide grants to women. Um, you know, in the industry, so they could leave these toxic places and have just like some money coming in to get them to that next, the next job, the next step. Um, but yeah, if, uh, anyone, you know, watching has recommendations as well, we're happy to add those to the list. I think that is top of mind.

Justin Fonte [39:08] That's great. Now, Ash, I know some brewery owners and leaders might be feeling a little overwhelmed at how to initiate change, and Women of the Bevolution has a bevy of resources to help them, so how can they get started?

Speaker 4 [39:21] Yeah, um, I think first step is, you know, just looking at, um, you know, looking at the hiring. Like, if you're looking to hire new people and you have positions available, you know, try to bring in diverse voices, and if you don't know where to go, you come to Women of the Evolution, you can hit me up, you can hit hit up like Pink Boots or Beer Culture or You know, you know, anyone here, even on this, on this, uh, interview right now, but like, I think that's really important is first, like, what does the taproom look like, who's in on the production side, how can we bring in these other diverse voices, um, and, you know, then also looking at, you know, just overall, like going back to the code of content and the resources for staff and consumers, like, what does that look like? Is it a safe environment? Um, and bringing in a third party HR resource. I think that is, that should be also like number one. Like, as much as, you know, is it, it's important to have kind of transparency and, and be able to talk with your staff, they're not gonna be honest with you, especially if some shitty situations have happened. So you should bring in a third party HR to talk to the employees, see what their goals are, see how they're feeling in this environment. And then from there, you know, figure out what is the plan, what is the, the long term kind of plan to create this environment for them that is supportive, that helps them get to that next level in their career. Um, so I think those steps are, are really important, and, you know, even going, and again, going back to consumers too, it's like, you know, what is that, what are the safety procedures there? And, um, you know, I, I recently discovered, like, ask for Angela, cause it came out of the UK and it's like, you know, just the bartenders, you know, are aware that if you ask for Angela at the bar, you need immediate help, we'll get you a lift, we'll get, you know, security to escort you out, um, or, you know, Angel. Shot is another initiative. Um, so I think they need to figure out, you know, these kind of steps, and then, you know, it's better to face it on than not, not do it at all. So, um, so I hope they definitely take this seriously and figure out what are those third party resources and, um, and also look at other industries and other companies that are progressive and have these, um, things in place already. Maybe talk to them and reach out and, and get some, uh, advice.

Justin Fonte [41:42] Great. Wren, I know you've had your consulting business for, for quite a few years now, and of course, the, the people who come to you are self-selecting, so they're ready to make this change, but for anybody who maybe is on the edge or, you know, on the fence, and they're not sure what to do, what's a great like first step that they can take right away?

Speaker 6 [41:59] Yeah, I wouldn't say that all of them did it because they wanted to. I, I have had people who reach out who are kind of like, I got caught, what do I do now? Um, I, you know, I have the, the reactive and the proactive clients, and I think that it's, it's the question, right? Like, are you, are you in trouble? Yes or no. Uh, if, if it's no, then you're being proactive, and I think that that is a really important piece is to kind of take a look, and if you're trying to make the effort, it really makes it a lot easier to, to utilize the resources to come out to me. Um, and I think that, you know, the thing that people should remember is it is a long term work commitment. Like this is not a, hey, so we told people we'd have this done by July 31st, we'll have like some paperwork done by like mid-August, and then, uh, everything's done by September, like that it's not how it works, right? This is, this is the world's shittiest lifetime marathon. Uh, you will have 2 good miles and the rest will burn your lungs, uh, and you have to be prepped for it, like, you know, and you have to think of it in terms of, I didn't do it to tick off a box, um, and also understand that I will not always want to work with you. There are, there are a lot of places that I'm just like, I kind of just want to fight you in the parking lot, like I don't actually want to work with you. Uh, and, and, you know, and it's just because you work with any of us or interact with any of us, it doesn't mean that you got a gold star. That's, you know, I don't give out gold stars for you being a half decent human. Uh, and I think that it's, it's with this stuff, you have to understand that you're gonna have to look at yourself in different ways, and, you know, it's the same, like you don't get to call yourself an ally, you don't get to call yourself a nice guy, like someone else has to tell you that that's what you are, and you have to understand that you can lose that. And, and I think that that is part of, of what breweries have to realize and have to understand that You can say you create a safe space, but if any of us told you it's not a safe space, well, guess what, it's not a safe space. So, um, yeah, I think that those are the pieces that people really have to keep in mind and, and have to understand that are so incredibly important when you're doing the work, and at the end you don't get to stand up on the top of the hill and say, look at me, I'm great, nah, you're OK.

Justin Fonte [43:57] God, you are so, so right. Jen, you just started a new job. Um, how did your past experiences affect the way that you viewed your onboarding process, and what should employees at other companies be looking for to know that they're going to be supported?

Speaker 3 [44:10] So I think one of the most important things you can do, and I did this, um, when I was speaking with Jason, who's the CEO of Orpheus, I had known from his personal social media presence, also Orpheus's social media presence, that Uh, my values aligned, at least with what I was seeing on social media. I also had friends who worked there, who had been there for long term, who I'd asked about it as well, uh, you know, about what, what is it like to be an employee there. And during our, you know, the first time we talked about me joining the team, we had a very candid conversation with, with about a lot of things and Um, I was, you know, I, I mean, I was in a more unique position in that we were creating space for me there, um, and that's, you know, very much a, a luxury that most people don't have, but When you're talking to an employee, you're, and when you're talking to a potential employer. You have a very vested interest in making sure that you will be safe and not discriminated against and have an expectation to be able to move up within the company and be supported in all of those things, and, you know, be supported through access, through resources, and like Bren said, that it's a continuing thing that your employer will provide to you. Ask those questions because you deserve those. Those are all basic things that you should have in a job that so many of us are conditioned to believe is a privilege, and it's not. Those are basic needs as an employee, and ask those questions, and if the employer doesn't have an answer for you, you have an answer for yourself about whether you would like to be employed there or not, because an employer who is in it for the long haul is going to be able to say, these are the policies, this is, you know, these are our philosophies, these are our values, we do everything according to this. And also, here's proof of all of those things that we do and continue to do. And, you know, if you're looking around the room and you don't see anyone who looks like you, ask. Why aren't there people who look like me? One of my favorite questions to ask when I'm on an interview is, what's your, what is your turnover rate? What's your attrition? How long do people stay here on average? How many people who work here, you know, were, have been promoted to their positions from within the company? How often do you hire outside of the company? Because a lot of times, that's going to tell you about what your experience is going to be like as an employee there.

Justin Fonte [46:53] Excellent, excellent insight. OK, uh, final question for each of you. Uh, at times, the news of the past few months has felt really heavy. What is one thing that you've encountered that's made you feel hopeful? Let's start with you, Brianne.

Speaker 5 [47:06] Nothing. I don't have an answer for that. I don't, I'm not hopeful for anything. Honestly, we haven't seen a single change anywhere, and I don't believe we're going to. I'm sorry, but I just don't.

Justin Fonte [47:20] No, no need to be sorry. I, I really kind of tend toward, toward your line of thinking here. I do remember you sharing a few stories from people who had wrote in to say that, you know, uh, former coworkers had said to them, like, I'm so sorry that you had gone through this. Right,

Speaker 5 [47:34] for sure, there have been personal accounts, people, uh, acknowledging like things that they've done wrong. Uh, I just don't see, there's not enough people being, you know, fired or under fire for what they've been called out or accused of doing. And like I said earlier, people are just waiting till all this blows over so they don't have to deal with it anymore. Uh, it's really nice that there are day to day like employee interactions that are getting Acknowledged that people are reaching out to some of the victims and just being like, I'm so sorry I didn't help you. I, I was there when I saw that and I didn't do anything. Um, so I'm glad there is change in that aspect, which is nice, but Not like. From the people actually assaulting people. And so, yeah.

Justin Fonte [48:30] I mean, you are right that it's, it's sad that I'm here being like, oh, this bare minimum, what a wonderful thing that happened, but.

Speaker 5 [48:37] Right, right.

Justin Fonte [48:38] Yeah. Ash, what's one thing that's made you feel a little hopeful?

Speaker 4 [48:42] First off, I think we're all fucking exhausted, and I just need to have a little sip uh for my voice before I get into this answer. Um, I have to say that, like, I do see some changes, right? I mean, it's not gonna happen instantly, it's gonna take time, and what I honestly really want is for women to leave these toxic places, and I think that's starting to happen, and finding those male allies or collaborators that they can work with in, uh, you know, more supportive environment and grow their careers, and I, I hope more women start their own businesses. I mean, honestly, that's like, That's my next step too, is like, I wanna like start a VC firm and like figure out how do we fund these women? How do we, how do we help them find those collaborator collaborators and male allies too, that will help, you know, fund these, uh, you know, businesses that they wanna start. So I think that like, yeah, there's small changes here and there, it's, again, it's a long, it's gonna take a while and we're all gonna be exhausted. And, uh, you know, when it comes down to it, it's like the leaders of the industry need to start speaking up, and, um, until that happens, then, you know, I think here and there there's gonna be some changes, and it's getting the right people in those leadership roles, uh, getting the diverse voices, and again, hopefully more women starting their own businesses and really kind of taking over the industry in in this way.

Justin Fonte [50:07] Hm. Speaking of being exhausted, Wren, I know you've changed your Twitter handle to Wren the exhausted, and I'm right there with you. What's, where are you drawing your energy from right now?

Speaker 6 [50:17] I don't know, I'm old. Uh, bloodbaths? I don't know. I really don't know. Uh. I think, I think that part of it too is, you know, I, I'm like, I always say that I'm, I'm like cautiously optimistic about things, but I've always been cautiously optimistic and I think I was born tired, um, but, you know, being a black woman in anything is automatically exhausting. And so I'm really just here to show the haters like screw you, I'm just gonna keep going. Uh, yeah, I'd love to nap for about 3 years, but, uh, if I give up, they win, and that's the last thing that I need in my life. So, you know, I'm not going anywhere. So that's, that's what keeps me going. It's, uh, it's absolute spite. It is spite that keeps

Justin Fonte [50:58] me going. I am like 150% powered by spite.

Speaker 3 [51:01] Yes.

Justin Fonte [51:02] Uh, Jen, we'll give you the last word. What is one thing that's making you feel a little bit hopeful or energized?

Speaker 3 [51:09] Uh, you know, I'll build off, uh, what Wren said with being spiked. My general attitude every day now is, let's just burn it down. Uh, there are so many things in the industry that don't serve most people. Uh, so let's just get rid of it. And I've been fortunate to connect with other people within the industry who share those views and say, OK, yeah, this, you know, this association isn't serving us anymore, or this society is not speaking for me in a way that makes me feel heard. Let's just do it ourselves and let people make their choices, but You know, it's, it's, is slow, and it's seeing those little bits of light through the cracks of it starting to break down, of women seeing that these stories didn't just happen to them, uh, also being reminded that, oh, yeah, a lot of that stuff that happens to me now that I just politely laugh off is actually unacceptable. And I'm not going to take it anymore, and seeing more and more people understand that that is, you know, that's their power, and kind of joining me in the rally cry of, let's just burn it all down. Uh, so my energy source, I guess, is mass arson.

Justin Fonte [52:31] That was perfect. Uh, final, final question. I think there's, there's one tool out there available to, to pretty much the entire industry that I think really could make some, some meaningful progress. So Ash, why don't you tell us about the, the not me, uh, anonymous reporting app, because I'm sure a lot of our viewers are should be really interested in it.

Speaker 4 [52:52] Yeah, so NotM is a free app for employees to report misconduct, uh, in the workplace, and then they'll be connected with the best resources, you know, in regards to like legal aid and, and anything else that they need, um, and not me actually has created Um, a page within the app that is just for the beer industry, and they've been super supportive, um, and, um, you know, also the, the founder also co-owns, uh, a law firm law firm called Empower Law, which has also provided some, some free legal aid as well. Um, for those in the industry. So, um, yeah, I, I, I, you know, I definitely recommend, um, you know, downloading the app, and if you need that resource, you know, it, it is, it's, it's a safe place to just report any misconduct, and also the app can work with businesses to, uh, You know, create like a almost like a page for that business, and if, if, you know, any of these breweries need that sort of reporting tool that is anonymous, I, I'd say like reach out to not me and they can build out that tool for you.

Justin Fonte [54:03] Fantastic. So, great place to leave it. That's our show. A huge thanks to Brienne, Wren, Ash, and Jen for joining us. Thank you guys for taking part in this really important conversation, and, and I'm really glad that you're able to help us keep the momentum on this movement going. Uh, thank you to everybody at home for tuning in, and as always, a huge thank you to our video team for making this all look and sound great. Thank you to everybody for watching.