Brewbound Frontlines: Fresh Fest & Taproom Staff Management During the Pandemic

Justin Fante [00:14] Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Brewbound Frontlines, our weekly live stream meetup with beer industry leaders on the moves they're making in this challenging business climate. I'm Justin Fante. Much to the disappointment of both my mom and pineapple enthusiasts everywhere, I am back in Massachusetts, no pineapple wall, uh, but there are some cool German signs and an illustration of the Jersey Devil behind me, so that's pretty sweet. Um, but it's really nice to be back in the same state again as my colleague Brewbound editor Justin Kendall, who is hopefully joined by Dusty, his dog, and the unofficial but pretty official Brewbound mascot. Hey, Justin,

Speaker 2 [00:47] what's up? Uh, I, uh, count me among those disappointed by the lack of pineapples here. I could use a lot more New Jersey Devils though.

Justin Fante [00:57] We'll work on that for next week. Yeah,

Speaker 2 [00:59] please do.

Justin Fante [01:01] So this week we're keeping things fresh with a multi-topic panel. Our first guest is, is the creative force behind Fresh Fest, the nation's first ever beer festival highlighting black-owned breweries. Fresh Fest normally happens in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, but is, of course, all digital this year, so everybody can enjoy it, which is a blessing in disguise. So welcome to Frontline's Day Bracey.

Speaker 3 [01:24] Hola, how are y'all doing over there?

Justin Fante [01:27] Good. Hey Day, thanks for joining

Speaker 3 [01:29] us. Oh, thanks for having me.

Justin Fante [01:31] Of course. So after we give everyone the details on Fresh Fest, we're gonna get into the ins and outs of running and staffing a taproom. The COVID-19 pandemic has upended on-site service as we know it. So we're checking in with leaders who have had to adapt during this time and who don't use the traditional tipped minimum wage method to pay their staff. So joining us today are Dani Babineau, the CEO of Redemption Rock Brewing in Worcester, Massachusetts. And Adam Delaura, the co-founder of Labyrinth Brewing in Manchester, Connecticut. And last but certainly not least, to help us make sense of all of this, we have Nancy Trigg, who is the president and chief growth officer of Arryved POS. So glad to have all of you guys on board today. A friendly reminder to all of our friends watching at home. If you've got a question for any of our panelists, you can text it to 617-336-8560, and we will get it answered for you. But before we get to the Today show, we do have a couple of plugs. So Justin, take it away.

Speaker 2 [02:28] That's right, I'm in the role of pitchman this week. Uh, on August 27th, we will be hosting our next Brewals virtual meetup. That's gonna be presented by Dogfish Head, uh, right here, same time, same place. Join us for two big panel discussions featuring Dogfish Head founder Sam Calionei, Russian Rivers, Natalie Chorusza, Green Bench Brewings, Chris Johnson, and Hopewell Brewing's Samantha Lee. They're gonna talk about the last 6 months of COVID-19, how their businesses survived, and what the path is forward. Uh, we're also gonna have the leaders of the Brewers Association, the NBWA and the Beer Institute here to discuss the last few months as well on the governmental affairs end of the spectrum. So, a lot of, uh, craft beverage modernization and Tax Reform Act talk. Uh, so Roger, uh, I mean, That's the hard sell right there, folks. So register for free on Brewbound.com. Next week, right here, 3:00 p.m. Eastern, we'll be back discussing private equity with the folks from Farley Turner, Arlington Capital Advisors, Cascadia Capital, and Cowan. So you're gonna want to check that out. We're going to get into the weeds there on private equity. Finally, Brettox or Brewbound, not Brettox, is moving to a subscription-based model in the very near future, which I'm sure you know about by now because there are pop-up ads on our site and some of you might have trouble closing them. Uh, we got that taken care of. We'd like you to join us. Um, look, the last few months have been really tough on everyone. This pandemic has affected our business as well as yours. Uh, in the past, we could provide our daily coverage for free, uh, and that's not the case because our events have been taken away from us by COVID-19. I mean, it makes it impossible to host those. We're doing our best to do those virtually, but it's just not the same situation. So our parent company, Bennet has had to make some changes, and we hope you'll come along for the ride. So that's that. Let's get to it, Jess.

Justin Fante [04:44] Thanks for uh taking care of all of that. That's, it's a lot of talking. So, today, Fresh Fest is a lot more than just a beer festival, uh, both in terms of what it represents, but also what it offers. There's so much more going on than just beer. So can you describe it for the audience?

Speaker 3 [04:58] Um, so Fresh Fest is, um, a A festival that's focused on promoting. Um, you know, black brewers, uh, in the beer industry, uh, the folks that are currently in it, um, as well as, uh, reaching the black community and, um, you know, uh, making them aware of the opportunities that are within the brew industry, uh, not just brewing, but all of the things around it. Uh, Brewbound, I'm sure, is, uh, employed by a lot of people who don't brew beer, but, uh, you know, are able to, you know, pay a couple of bills, um, as a result of it. So, um, you know, learning. Um, learning that we want to, um, we want to build, uh, a festival that allows access, opportunity, representation, um, a safe space for people to ask questions, um, as well as, uh, you know, uplifting the culture and the arts therein, the music, the, uh, the food, um, the visual art, and, and things of that nature. So, uh, we're in our 3rd year, uh, promoting, promoting that through the industry.

Justin Fante [06:01] Great. So, obviously it's your 3rd year, and I know the past two, if they were any indication, uh, the in-person version this year would have been a huge success. I know Justin and I were both planning on coming to Pittsburgh for it, um, and I was looking forward to having sandwiches with french fries on them, but unfortunately, the novel coronavirus had other plans. So, when did you know that the festival had to go online and what was going through your mind when that happened?

Speaker 3 [06:23] Um, Uh, when, so, uh, our last in-person meeting for Fresh Fest was uh March. Um, right at the end of that meeting, uh, we found out that Tom Hanks had the rona and the NBA was canceled. Um, you know, so at that point we started to kind of have an idea that this might not be a thing. Um, I'd like to say it was the WHO or the CDC that, uh, you know, alerted us of that, but It was Tom Hanks. Um, so, you know, um, around that point is when we started to kind of, um, dual plan in a sense, like, uh, maybe it's not gonna happen, maybe it is. And then it was around, um, you know, late April was when we decided that we weren't gonna have an in-person event and then it was around mid-May that we decided to actually move forward with a digital event.

Speaker 2 [07:10] So what's the planning process like in, in shifting gears there? Like, what are all the hurdles that you have to overcome to create an online festival or turn what would have been an, an in-person festival into a, an online festival?

Speaker 3 [07:27] Uh, first, we had to gauge interest to see if anybody wanted this, and, and to be honest, um, we were just going to postpone it and we got a lot of feedback from the community saying that they wanted something positive to look forward to. They wanted something, you know, an alternative, even if it was digital, a way for the community to come together again this year and to continue the mission, um, you know, so there was the interest there first. Then we wanted to make sure that we were able to offer. A lot of the elements of uh of Freshfest at a high quality, um, you know, our brand is, is known for, you know, a certain level of, of, of quality for our events, and we didn't want to just do a 9-hour Zoom call or a bunch of, you know, conferences for 9 hours or, um, you know, just a, a handheld phone festival, um, you know, with a bunch of IG, you know, mix-ups and, and, and fuels, so. Um, we first and foremost, we went to, uh, one of our main sponsors, Work Hard Digital, and asked them if this was something that we were able to do affordably. Um, and they came back with some numbers and said, yeah, we can do that. Uh, they also developed an app, uh, to make it all, you know, streamlined and easy for all the information to be there for folks to understand what we were doing. Um, and then we had to go to brewers to find out if they were capable of brew. beer, um, in a short period of time. Uh, we started planning this again in mid-May and we didn't want to change the, the date because it seems the later you get into 2020, um, the more of a, you know, shit storm it becomes. So we were like, let's keep this date and let's see if we can do that. Uh, we were lucky enough to have, um, the support from the brewing industry, uh, to get the beers brewed in a relatively, um, decent time. Um, and then it was a matter of explaining to people what this festival was. Um, it's new, uh, it hasn't been done before, and, you know, it's confusing, you know, is it all on the app? Is it, you know, are we just gonna be watching it on Zoom, like, you know, how much is it? What is, you know, it's a lot of different questions, um, and trying to explain to people that the festival. The beer doesn't just come in one neat package when you buy a ticket. Um, you know, you gotta kind of work through it a little bit because we're jury rigging a lot of different technologies that weren't available, um, a year ago, um, and a lot of concepts that, uh, weren't, weren't available a year ago. Um, charging for digital content is hard, um, you know, and Most people are used to just getting it for free unless it's a subscription service like Netflix. So, you know, that has been, to be honest, that has been the biggest hurdle is just trying to explain to the community what it is we're doing, um, you know, for the, for the 10 bucks that they're paying.

Speaker 2 [10:01] 10 bucks would be a hell of a deal for a Fresh Fest and free beers or, or beers on top of that, so.

Speaker 3 [10:08] Yeah, yeah, I got a lot of, uh, messages like, does that come with a beer? Like, yeah, yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna ship, uh, that 88 beers to your door for 10 bucks. Like it's cool. Let's, let's be back the moon shining. So, well, let's,

Speaker 2 [10:23] let's back it up a little bit. Tell us about some of the collaborations that you guys have been able to put together for this.

Speaker 3 [10:29] Um, well, you had mentioned, uh, mentioned Chris, um, down at Greenbench. So Greenbench and Four Points are, uh, gonna be teaming up to do a lager. Um, so the way that the, the idea came from Tom Poet, our head of collaborations, um, and he wanted to kind of mimic a, uh, mix pack that he said Stone was doing a while back where there were a bunch of different collaborations that you could get just in the same box from different breweries. Um, so we paired, we paired 8. Um, local breweries, uh, here in Pittsburgh with 8 black-owned breweries around the country to do collaborations, um, and the 8 pack features 4 different styles, a, a hoppy, a lager, a dark, and a sour. So you're really getting that, you know, diversity in the beer, you're getting black-owned breweries shipped to 25 states, something that hadn't been done before, um, and, you know, we're able to pay the breweries in a, um, in a, in a, in a difficult Cold time. We're also able to get black-owned beer shipped to Pittsburgh, which is, is hard. There's no black-owned breweries that are up and um operating here in Pennsylvania, um, as well as, uh, the rest of the country. So, um, yeah, I mean those are the, uh, the APAC is. We have, um, Tor that we paired up with that's gonna ship it out to all the folks, uh, at least 25 states. That's half the country, um, you know, we'll be working on, you know, getting the rest of the country next year. Um, but yeah, I mean, it's, um, super excited for some of the collabs that are coming out. Um, you know, the names, all the labels are designed by black artists. Um, we're paying those black artists and, uh, yeah, I mean, if you're, if you're interested in black-owned beer, we got an 8 pack. It's, it's, I'm still kind of wrapping my head around, um, you know, being, I don't, I don't know too many other packs that you can get 8, 16 actually different breweries in the same pack.

Justin Fante [12:17] I don't think it exists. Um, so with less than 48 hours to go before the event starts, what's left on your list to do?

Speaker 3 [12:25] Um, emails, um, a lot of, a lot of emails. So just, um, you know, if there's some promotion. Um, and just making sure that everybody is in place and knows exactly where they need to be, um, and what they need to do. Um, you know, there's gonna be, you know, I just had a couple of cancellations for, for Music X, so there's gonna be some. Booking, some, um, you know, uh, uh, the, the logistics. Is the beer there? Is it not, you know, like, so it's just a lot of cleanup and just making sure we're tightening the bolts on this thing so that, um, whenever we do present this, it's the most, you know, streamlined and best product that we could put out. Um, you know, I mean, as far as the elements of the festival, they're kinda You know, they're kind of in place. Uh there's not a whole lot that we can do other than, um, you know, make sure that everybody's performing and has the knowledge to perform at their highest, uh, capabilities.

Justin Fante [13:24] So there's been a lot of talk this summer about the beer industry's lack of diversity, and you joined us in December at Brewbound Live in Santa Monica to, to discuss this very topic. And I think the way that you would put it then was so plain and easy for everyone to understand that I actually sent the video of your talk with Justin to a bunch of people. I was like, please watch this. This will help you. But do you think that any progress has been made in terms of getting people to recognize that this is a problem?

Speaker 3 [13:49] Yeah, I mean, I think, uh, I think, you know, once the, the conversation started to, you know, happen, especially on a national level, I don't think that that conversation stopped. Um, and, and, you know, more organizations are popping up and more people are, you know, the more people are aware, the more people that we're bringing on to that, you know, like that allyship and building those bridges and saying, hey, You know, um, you know, this is an issue. So, you know, there's always, there's always progress being made to some degree. Um, it's dope this year. We have MacKenzie Harris, who, um, you know, Pittsburgh local who just started brewing beer a couple of years ago, partially because of Fresh Fest, now has a job at a, at a brewery up in Buffalo and is going to be, uh, brewing a collaboration beer with Hot Farm. Locally, um, it's changed like that. It's little, but it's changed like that that we're looking for, um, you know, you have J. Nicole Beckham over there with Kraft by EDU, um, you have, uh, Garrett Oliver that just launched Michael Jackson Foundation, um, you know, you have, uh, you know, rogues working at, you know, the Black is Beautiful collaboration that came out that raised some awareness. So, you know, there's definitely So Um, you know, it's, it's, it's an ongoing battle, um, and it, and it always will be. Um, I know that you guys had mentioned the Brewers Association, and yeah, I mean, there's, there's, there's work to be done, um, with the Brewers Association and the way that they, they deal with, uh, you know, their members, um, based on, you know, uh, you know, uh. The, the, the issues surrounding race and, um, you know, how they hold their people accountable, um, you know, in the industry, it's not enough to just throw a couple of dollars around and, and, and a couple of black squares and say, you know, we're doing it. Um, you know, you gotta, you gotta do a little bit more. So, um, yeah, definitely some progress, but quite a bit more progress to be made.

Speaker 2 [15:41] Did you feel, you talked about allyship. Did you feel that allyship in putting together this year's Fresh Fest?

Speaker 3 [15:49] Yeah, I mean, so, but, for sure. So, uh, shout out to Carmen and PH Experiment. Um, I met them actually out at Brewbound Live, um, in December. Um, she came through and, you know, she really understood. We had a conversation. Um, she really understood our mission and wanted to do what she, she could, um, with PH experiment to kind of further that. And, and the conversation we had was, hey, find somebody in your neighborhood, you know, it's OK if you, if you promote somebody in Pittsburgh, but it's not gonna be as, um, fulfilling and long-lasting of a relationship as if you find someone in your neighborhood that you can, you know, go across the street and say, hey, you know, what are you guys doing? How can we help, um, you know, before. Or during and after the festival, so they hooked up with Exit the Maze, um, and they brewed a kombucha, and you know, she, you know, when the, when the, when the, when the COVID hit, we lost a lot of sponsorship, um, a lot of people kind of dried up, you know, for, for good reason, um, a lot of marketing and advertising budgets got slashed, um, greatly. So, uh, you know, we, you know, PH Experiment and Carmen were, were a couple of the few folks that were just Like, you know what, that's cool, we're in a place that we can continue, um, with our collaboration because we, we, you know, we're not just doing it for the festival, we're doing it because we believe in, in the cause, um, you know, truly, so they continue with their collaboration, they continue with their sponsorship, um, and, you know, they were just like, it doesn't matter what you guys do, we're gonna continue to, to put the work in at least on our end, and if we can help you guys out in any way. We're here. So, um, definitely, you know, uh, a, a strong allyship out there from PH experiment, but also, you know, a lot of the sponsors, um, both monetarily and in kind, uh, locally and nationally. Um, Allagash, uh, hooked up with Urban Roots, um, you know, again, they continued their collaboration even through the COVID, um, despite whether, uh, you know, Fresh Fest is gonna happen or not, um, and, you know, just a lot of people reaching out. Um, you know, especially after, you know, the, the tragic murder of Mr. Floyd, um, and it's one of those things that, you know, we're always here doing the work and we're always going to be here doing the work. We were doing the work beforehand. We as black people don't have the, uh, the luxury of kind of like not being aware or just kind of coming on to it whenever it's popular to do so. So, but what we're, what we're able to do is whenever you do become aware, we're here and we're, we're ready to guide. You on, you know, like, all right, you know, when people come in and they wake up and they go, you know what, I probably haven't haven't been doing, uh, enough. How can I do more? Um, we're here. Um, Garrett Oliver is there, you know, Kraft IEDU is there, Brewing Change, um, out in Minnesota is there, and they always have been there and they will be there, you know, after when the news cycle moves on to the next hot topic button, you know what I mean, button topic. Whenever, you know, you know, the shit storm of the elections come around in November, we're still gonna be doing that work, um, and, you know, the work that we do here isn't in a bubble, it's not in a vacuum. Um, when we are empowering the black community, uh, you know, we're empowering the black community to do more than just, you know, brew beer or, you know, find, you know, upliftment in, in the, in the craft beer industry, you know, we start to raise awareness, uh, you know. In all the other industries as well, and all the other aspects of life, and, you know, allow people to say, hey, you know, um, if they're doing that over there, why aren't we doing this here in the tech industry or why aren't we doing this here, you know, in the clothing industry, you know, or, or whatever else. So, um, you know, that's why, you know, the allyship definitely is there, um, it's grown and, um, you know, hopefully it continues to do so.

Speaker 2 [19:31] What's the sense that you're getting locally as far as support goes?

Speaker 3 [19:36] Um, yeah, I mean, we, so, it's, it's tough. Um, everybody, you know, COVID happened, but, um, Pittsburgh, it's, it's one of those things that, um, everybody's struggling. So everybody's just trying to figure out what they can do, but once we announced that we were doing this festival, um, we got a lot of support from folks that were just like, you know, I, I don't even know if there's another beer festival happening in Pittsburgh. Um, I don't know how many beer festivals are happening in a virtual, uh, setting in, in, in America, but, you know, the, the industry here locally, um, really did say, hey, you know, we need this. This is something that, um, you know, this mission doesn't, didn't stop because the pandemic happened, um, and they see the value in it. And Pittsburgh, you know, really has solved the value in what we're doing, um, you know, for the industry. They understand that, uh, they can't continue to be as homogeneous in their, um, you know, in their employment, in their, in their, uh, you know. Um, their guests, uh, you know, in their thinking. So, um, yeah, we've, we've definitely got a lot of support, um, here locally, uh, you know, there's always work, again, always work to be done, but, you know, focusing on, on the positive, especially through a pandemic, I didn't know if anybody was going to be. Be able to do anything and once we announced this, people just hopped on and said, hey, I got some free time and I got some, some resources and some skills and some knowledge. How can we, you know, how can we um offer that to you in order to, to move forward. So, um, yeah, the support has definitely grown um over the years.

Justin Fante [21:15] What do you think the future of Fresh Fest looks like? Well, we hope, hope, I mean, like, if we can all be together again next year, what, what do you think the event will look like?

Speaker 3 [21:23] Um, so, you know, the, we, we have plans, uh, moving into the future to, um, we're always gonna be here in Pittsburgh, uh, here in August, but, you know, we definitely wanna, uh, move the festival, um, outside the city, um, earlier in the year, later in the year, you know, around the country, um, around the, around the planet. There's black people all across the planet that can find, um, opportunity in the beer industry. Um, so, you know, we definitely want to travel, but, um, you know, coming back into it, I'm not We'll, uh, we'll find another venue. Um, we'll find, uh, it, it'll change how it changes, is going to be weird because we don't know. That's how the, the fest evolves, like how we looked at this festival, even. In the middle of May is, is completely different to what it is now because of the input of the community. So, um, it's gonna be different next year, but we will have that digital component to it. Um, we're super excited that we're able to offer, um, this festival to people all across the world so they can have that access to, you know, the speakers, to the, um, you know, looking at, uh, the beers that are being brewed, how they're being brewed, um. Music that's, that's there, the art, the food, um, we want to expose people to this industry and being that we have now built a digital component to that, we can come back live and also continue to, um, push that out to, you know, potentially 7 billion people, um, you know, and that's what, that's what we, uh, I'm super excited for that. The digital portion of this isn't going anywhere, it's just going to enhance. Be in person. So if you can't afford to buy a ticket to Pittsburgh or whatever city you we happen to go to next year, it's OK. 10 bucks in an internet connection, um, and, and you're there live. So, super excited for the potential of that because right now it's just what we're able to do in 2.5 months. I can't, I mean, I can't imagine what we can do with a year worth of planning, uh, moving forward, so excited.

Justin Fante [23:27] Awesome. Well, Dave, we know you have so much to do cause it's, it's fest week. So why don't you give everybody, uh, a quick plug on where they let everyone know where they can buy their tickets, and then we'll, we'll, uh, thank you for your time. But, um,

Speaker 3 [23:38] so Freshfest, Digifest, D I GIfest.com. Um, please download the app. The app is free. Um, get a look at, you know, the artists that we have, the collabs that we have. There's a black-owned brew directory that's there. So, um, all of the 65, uh, breweries that are here in the country are listed on that app. Um. You know, we have uh small business workshops, giveaways, um, and, and, and all types of, you know, we have speaker profiles and everything else on the app. Um, and again, Freshfest Digifest.com. If you get the app, you can, you know, find out how to buy tickets and how to buy beer, um, you know, and how to support, uh, black artists, entrepreneurs, and breweries, um, in the country. So Freshfest Digifest.com.

Justin Fante [24:21] Perfect. Jay, thank you so much for joining us. I know how busy you are this week. I'm so looking forward to Saturday. It's gonna be awesome.

Speaker 3 [24:27] Thank you, thank you. I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go put out some dumpster fires. Good luck. Thanks.

Justin Fante [24:33] Thanks, Jay. OK. So, um, huge thanks to today for joining us. I know he's really busy this week, um, but we have the rest of our panel, Adam, Danny, and Nancy, and, uh, we're gonna shift gears quite a bit, so, Uh, the pandemic has affected the entire economy, uh, but the hospitality industry has been particularly decimated. So traditionally, bar and restaurant employees are paid a lower hourly rate and make the bulk of their income through tips. But in a world in which, you know, taproom, bar, restaurant capacity is slashed and many consumers are still staying home, tips are really hard to predict. Um, our guests Adam and Danny both use very different methods at their taprooms. So, um, Adam, why don't you explain Labyrinth's wage system to the audience.

Speaker 4 [25:17] Sure, absolutely. So, um, our front of house staff, um, you know, even prior to COVID, they start off at $1 above minimum wage, um, which is a lot more than what you'd expect to make in a traditional bar or restaurant or whatnot. Um, in addition, uh, the front of house staff split all the tips. So whatever they earn out there, they collect, um, and to go one step further because it's really important for us as owners of a business to treat our employees as, uh, Valuable human beings. Um, we also offer, uh, anybody who works 30 or more hours a week, uh, has, uh, access or the ability to join our health insurance plan. So that's vision, dental, health, etc. So.

Justin Fante [25:58] Cool. And then Adam, you're in Connecticut, so minimum, minimum wage is a little different there than where it is everywhere else. So what does that, that rate come out to per hour?

Speaker 4 [26:05] Yeah, so currently the Connecticut minimum is 11. So, you know, if you start off as a brand new uh beer tender, beer wizard as we call them, uh, it's 12 bucks an hour.

Justin Fante [26:16] What a great title. Well,

Speaker 4 [26:18] I mean, we work a lot of magic, so.

Justin Fante [26:21] Danny, why don't you tell us a little bit about what Redemption Rock does, cause I know it's very different.

Speaker 5 [26:26] Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, we just opened about a year and a half years ago and we decided, um, when we opened that none of us as owners, there's 4 of us, um, and we, none of us wanted to do a tipped model at all. Um, we have some of us have worked in the industry, we've all obviously been customers in the industry and have traveled to plenty of places where they don't do tips for the service industry. And so the way that we built our model was really based on the way that salaries work in pretty much, uh, you know, most other industries where everybody on our staff is pretty much on salary, um, for taproom hours, if you're over 40 hours a week in a taproom, you still get overtime for that, but, um, for pretty much everybody gets the, the same base pay rate every week, um, and so it's basically just based on kind of where you are in the company, whether you. You're at an entry level kind of taproom position or kind of as you move up, um, through leadership, um, which is, is so far we basically only have two tiers which is like leadership and then taproom employees, um, because we're a small staff as well. But yeah, so everybody gets paid, you know, the way that you would if you worked, um, you know, in an office, um, and so we don't rely on our customers to pay our employees, we pay them ourselves and then all the revenue it goes into the company which we then make payroll with um. Um, and then also, uh, because people are very uncomfortable with not tipping, um, in the service industry, we do accept cash tips and we donate them to a different nonprofit every month, um, so we kind of go through as a staff and we choose what nonprofits we wanna work with each month. We set our agenda for the year of what every, um, nonprofit's gonna be so we can give them a heads up, um, and last year in 2019 we raised just over $35,000 for a local nonprofits in our community.

Justin Fante [28:14] Wow, that's so great. Yeah. So, Danny, it sounds like Redemption Rock started out with this model, but Adam, did Labyrinth, was Labyrinth set up this way from the start too?

Speaker 4 [28:25] Uh, yeah, absolutely. Um, we, when myself and my business partners got together and we were trying to decide what the pay structure was gonna be, we have all fortunately or unfortunately experienced really terrible working conditions, and so one of the big things for us was to, again, treat our employees like they are valuable human beings, which they are, and also compensate them, uh, for the work they do, because at the end of the day, the labor that my employees, uh, Produce that adds value to the company that I own. So I kind of have an ethical and a moral obligation to compensate them for working so hard to increase, you know, something that's valuable to me.

Speaker 2 [29:07] Nancy, uh, we wanna get you involved here. Uh, you've been waiting patiently. Give us a high-level overview of what you're seeing across the country.

Speaker 6 [29:17] Um, sorry, in terms of what specifically? How,

Speaker 2 [29:20] how common is it for taprooms to not collect tips? I, I, I should have finished the second part there.

Speaker 6 [29:26] That's OK, yeah, um, you know, honestly, I would say that it's still fairly typical that most are collecting tips. That's what we're seeing across the board. There are a few exceptions in our, um, customer portfolio. Uh, but how people Utilize those tips is what seems to be changing the most, um, who all is included in You know, sort of tipping pools, um, how tipping pools are disseminated, things like that seems to be changing and people seem to be experimenting quite a bit more. Um, with how to keep everyone paid and sharing in the tips so that all employees are participating.

Speaker 2 [30:07] Tipping is so ingrained in the American culture that it's, it's common for people to do it, whether you, you use the tip system or not. Danny, what's the reaction of Redemption Rock customers when they find out that you donate all the tips to charity?

Speaker 5 [30:23] Um, it ranges from like slight confusion, um, to absolute shock and awe, um, to people who literally have come in because we've had a fair amount of press about it and so people that come in because of that, um, and wanna support that or they wanna support the nonprofit that we are, um, supporting that month, uh, but yeah, no, it's definitely something that we've had, we have to train our customers on, um, and so. So normally we have a counter service model. So typically the reaction is someone's closing out their check and they're like, but how do I leave a tip? And we explain, we only do cash tips because we donate everything. Um, and, and there's definitely like a little bit of we have to usually explain ourselves a couple of times. Um, and a lot of times customers will be like, I remember one of our, um, employees like had to sit a guy down and explain it cause he was like, that's not right, that's not OK that you guys can't have tips. She's like, no, no, like, we don't get tips because we get paid a salary. Like, it's not that they're keeping our tips. Um, so there's definitely a good amount of, like, customer training that we have to do. And then there's, like, people who've worked in the industry who have come in and like been like close to tears that somebody is doing something differently that they would have liked to experience as well. So, it, it's definitely the tipping system is, it, it's a weirdly emotionally charged issue, um. And there's like a lot, there's some background in there too, that is part of the reasoning why we wanted to get away from it too, because there's, you know, some of those emotions have to do with complicated social structures around race and gender and kind of power structures as well, which I feel like is probably a little, a little deep for this conversation, but all of that kind of fed into our discomfort with the, the system.

Justin Fante [32:04] Uh, Nancy, I know you have a lot of exposure to all sorts of different models. So, um, do, do you hear about like what the pros and cons of tipped and not tipped models are? Is that something that your clients often, um, discuss with you guys?

Speaker 6 [32:16] Yeah, it is, and honestly it kind of depends on where the staff comes from, right? In places where you've got staff that is predominantly coming from the more traditional restaurant industry, there's a much higher attachment level to those tips and that sort of way of working, um, you know, sort of controlling your own destiny, I guess, in terms of your own income. Um, folks that are coming either new into the industry or coming from the beverage industry seem to be much more, um, embracing, excited and enthusiastic about tip pooling method methods or even the methods that um Adam and Danny are talking about the sort of non-traditional non-tipped method. So it kind of depends on where you are, it also depends on where in the country you are. Um, the age of your staff really does tend to affect that, right, what people are used to and how attached to those older models they are, um, but there's definitely a, you know, it feels like this is a conversation that is constantly evolving. Um, almost every conversation we have with a customer that's on boarding with our system starts with, you know, what are our options and how creative can we be about how we share, pool, or, um, manage tips.

Justin Fante [33:30] Interesting. What kind of creativity do you see in the, the shared pooling and management, cause that's different.

Speaker 6 [33:36] Yeah, so, um, there's, there's a lot of people being included in tips that previously were not, right, in establishments where, you know, maybe at a, a taproom, you just have, you have someone that's either running or hosting, that's not actually a beer tender or server, uh, making sure those people are participating. Um, we've seen a few places that even Include some of their production folks, um, in tip pooling in states where that's allowed, that's not allowed everywhere, but, um, so that, you know, they can keep the wages fair amongst You know, true back of shop in front of shop, um, wages and um we see, gosh we see all kinds of things we see people who, um, completely exclude anyone in a leadership role, even if they're working as a bartender. Um, because those salaries are higher, um, so there's just a lot of flexibility and a lot of people trying to be creative, and definitely we are seeing a few more of the folks that are trying to do donations either instead of or in addition to their traditional tipping, so adding tips for the local nonprofits and things like that.

Justin Fante [34:45] Makes a ton of sense. So if you are watching at home and you have a question for any of our panelists, please feel free to shoot a text to 617-336-8560. Um, so, Nancy, I know one of the things that you and I talked a little bit about what the platform can do is kind of manage tips and tip distribution. So how much work goes into tip distribution on management's end? How time-consuming is that?

Speaker 6 [35:09] Oh goodness, well, if you don't have, I mean, honestly, if you don't have a lot of good data coming out of your system, it can be quite cumbersome. Trying to figure out who worked which hours, um, how tips should be allocated based on seniority or how, you know, whatever policies you have in place. Some people like to break up tips by shift, some like to break them up by hour, um, and obviously you can imagine when you've got, you know, 4 or 5 people working and different, um, variable rates and tipping that just the math and the management of that can get quite hard if you don't have sort of preconfigured tools that do that for you. I mean, I would say, you know, on average, a couple hours a day that people are putting into the larger companies are putting into. Managing their tips, which is kind of crazy.

Speaker 2 [35:55] Adam, uh, I wanna bring you back in here. What, what kind of taproom does a non-tip model work best for?

Speaker 4 [36:05] A non-tip model? Yeah. You know, it, that would be hard to say. I mean, it's not something that I've experienced, you know, the staff splits taps, uh, tips, uh, excuse me. You'd think I had started drinking already, but that's not the case. Um, you know, my staff, uh, you know, splits the tips, uh, evenly based on hours worked regardless of, uh, what level of staff they are, and, uh. You know, that works well for us, and everybody seems to be OK with that. We haven't even had, you know, we haven't even thought to have a discussion to explore another option, you know, to go non-tip or or or whatnot. So

Speaker 2 [36:46] Dani, uh, do you have any thoughts on that?

Speaker 5 [36:50] Yeah, I mean, so for us, we kind of just try to design our taproom in a way that would work, and I guess now COVID has, at least from an operational standpoint, um, COVID has forced us to try another model because now we have to do table service where we are, um, and we, I mean, honestly, like we've been able to switch the table from counter service to table service without having to hire any additional staff. Um, I mean, we, we have a very small staff. Um, there's, uh, 6 of us total. Um, including our brewer, um, and so for us what's worked really well is just giving kind of all of our, it's more of our staff management I think than our taproom model in that we really kind of trust all of our staff to really take on the responsibility of every transaction with a customer, every, um, and the success of the business in general. Um, everybody's kind of empowered to. Um, really learn all the insides and outs of the business to question everything that we do. Um, we're very transparent. We do staff weekly meetings, um, with, with everyone, um, we're completely open book. Everybody understands like what our payroll is every month, um, and, you know, I think that that transparency and that really putting a lot of responsibility. Ability and empowerment into our staff's hands allows us to be able to operate with a higher payroll cost because we operate pretty efficiently, um, we ask kind of a lot out of our staff and ourselves, um, but we're able to do that, you know, partially because they really believe everybody really believes in what we're doing and our mission, um, and because people feel like they're being compensated fairly. Um, so I mean, as far as the operations go, I think both counter service and table service, it, it, it has worked fine. Um, it, like I said, cust uh, customer training, um, with the table service, it's a little bit more weird because we're like not bringing them checks, we're just using a tablet to cash people out, um, and people will still just leave money on the table. And so, like, it's a little bit more like we have to be proactive in explaining where their money is going. Um, but it, it's worked equally well, and I think that if you believe in it enough, um, you can adapt to it.

Justin Fante [39:02] OK, Adam, can you tell us how the pandemic has affected your team, cause I know when you and I caught up, you, you guys had changed some operations. So what was it like for the team when you transitioned to start opening up for curbside pickup a few months ago? How did that change go?

Speaker 4 [39:14] Yeah, well, it was challenging. I'm sure everyone else uh in the industry can, can agree with that. Um, so, you know, we went from having a hustle and bustling, you know, tap room, we've got a large space, occupancy is about 175, you know, shoulder to shoulder on a Friday night, it gets crazy and that's a good thing. To like crickets in the taproom, nothing. Um, so we quickly shifted to curbside pickup, which obviously doesn't require. All of the humans I had employed prior. So, we, you know, made a, a decision to lay everybody off immediately, so they could collect whatever benefits they were done, and then we basically pooled all the tips that we collected for curbside pickup while myself and the other two owners, uh, worked curbside, brewed all the beer, and And uh we use that tip money, for example, to, for a few things to help the staff out, but to keep them on the insurance, cause obviously, you don't wanna lose your health insurance because you lost your job because there's a global pandemic that shut your job down, like that's just not a thing, so. Um, but once we were able to get the OK to reopen with all the CDC guidelines and the masks and the gloves and the distancing and whatnot, we were able to bring everybody back again and, uh, whatever remaining balance we had of those tips that we had collected, we dispersed out to them all as a bonus, um, which was awesome for them, you know, they really appreciated that, and, uh, we actually were able to hire another additional person, um, because I don't wanna say we're busy, but we're definitely steady. So, and we're also trying to make some uh adjustments in our staffing because there are people who are home with children, people who are homeschooling, and that kind of stuff. So the staffers have things going on in their personal life, so we're just adjusting our operation around them so that they can still have that work-life balance and, you know, not have to dread coming to work every day.

Justin Fante [41:06] So that's great. When were you allowed to reopen?

Speaker 4 [41:09] I wanna say sometime in the end of May, we opened up a temporary uh outdoor seating area, and then sometime mid-June, we were able to have the taproom back open again. You know, again, at the tap room is probably about 1/3 of the occupancy we normally had, and that's if everybody shows up in the right group of 4 or 5 people and sits in the right tables and all that stuff. So, I mean, essentially, we're operating maybe a little less than a half occupancy if you count the outdoor seating and the indoor seating, so.

Justin Fante [41:35] Dani, how is reopening? Oh, go ahead, Justin. Sorry, I was

Speaker 2 [41:38] gonna say, how long is that sustainable

Speaker 4 [41:40] for you? I mean, that's a good question, you know, I mean, you know, uh, one of the fortunate things that we have is that we do a lot of distribution as well, so a lot of our beer is canned uh or kegged and put off out into bars and restaurants, so. We're in a fortunate position where as the the tap room. Kind of dwindles down because of restrictions, uh, liquor stores are still open in the state, so their sales are, are increasing as people are staying home and, you know, not venturing out to a bar or restaurant, so we're able to sort of switch production on the factory end of things and package things in cans and send them out. So, right now we're kind of holding our own. Who knows what's gonna happen in the future, but right now we're, we're treading water and we're, we're doing OK. So,

Speaker 2 [42:30] were you able to uh obtain PPP money?

Speaker 4 [42:33] Oh, absolutely, yeah, I mean, we applied for everything possible with the idea that let's apply for everything, see what the details are, and then make an educated decision as to, yeah, sure, we'll take this, no, we're not taking that, yes, this is how we can use it. So, I mean, we are nothing if not tenacious, and we're not gonna let this put us under, so.

Speaker 2 [42:53] Dani, did you also receive PPP money and how sustainable is the current operating environment for your business?

Speaker 5 [43:02] Yeah, we, um, so we actually, we received our PPP money in April. Um, we also got a small grant from our city. Um, and then we also in June, right, when our PPP money was running out, we also got, um, the EIDL loan as well. Um, and all of that has been a huge help, um, and, and really, actually, I know there's been a lot of frustrations with both for good reasons, but for what we do in our model, it, it helped us a ton and worked really well for us. Um, the PPP, the, like, even the initial 75%. To go to payroll, that was perfect for what we needed for payroll for 8 weeks and then the rest went to a month of rent and a health insurance payment. So, um, that was hugely helpful for us to get through April, May, and June. And then we were able to reopen again the end of June. Um, inside we got kind of lucky on the restrictions, the way that they're set up in Massachusetts, and that it's, um, there's no capacity restriction. Restrictions. It's about how, how, how much your tables are spread out. Um, and so we kind of have a big space anyway with a lot of flex space and standing space and playing game space. So we eliminated all of that standing and kind of flexible space and just spread our tables out a little bit more, and we only lost the bar seating and one big table. Um, and we're working on adding some additional outdoor seating. Um, we have a little bit right now, but not a lot. Um, so we just finished our first full month of being open again, um. And we actually, we were fairly close to our revenue number for last July, the difference being that last July it was a 100% draft, and then we just started canning with a mobile canner in November. Um, so this year it's been significantly, uh, more packaged product, and we also just started, uh, we've increased our, our wholesaling again, um, including signing a district or having. A distribution agreement with, um, night shift. So, it's a definitely a different cost structure. Um, but where we are right now, like, this is sustainable as long as we stay kind of in this zone. Um, my biggest fear right now is stuff's going backwards and, and, and having to shut back down, which is still just a day to day watching everything and, and having anxiety about that.

Justin Fante [45:19] Definitely. I feel like we are certainly looking at another round of shutdowns, potentially, but great audience question that just came through. Uh, Nancy, I definitely think this is, uh, right in your wheelhouse. A question from friend of Brewbound, American Cider Association Executive Director, Michelle McGrath. Hey, Michelle. Um, Michelle's got a great question. Is there a correlation to lower staff turnover and higher staff satisfaction in tip-less models? Nancy, what are you seeing from, from out in the world?

Speaker 6 [45:45] Well, again, we're not seeing a lot of tipless models. I'm just, you know, it's just not a trend yet. It could be, but we're not seeing that as a trend yet. Um, obviously there is better staff satisfaction levels in places that can and are able to make, you know, pay higher wages. Um, when it comes to the, the sort of changes that we're seeing on that front though, in the sort of in the pandemic, is that people are starting to pay a lot more attention to that kind of hourly. Um, efficiency gap and like, you know, our, what is our percentage of output and our costs and staffing compared to our intake in revenue, so looking at that a lot tighter, um, and making sure that they're staffing in a way that their staff is continuing the staff that is working is continuing to make a good, if not better wage, so really kind of honing in on. When people, um, when bringing staff back is the most profitable, right? So we're seeing a lot of people working shorter or a lot of companies going to shorter hours, um, maybe opening 4 nights a week instead of 5, something like that, so that they can really run an efficient and, um, profitable both for them and for their staff, um, kind of a staffing experience.

Justin Fante [47:01] What kinds of questions are you guys hearing? What, what's on everyone's minds when it comes to staffing?

Speaker 6 [47:08] Um, staffing efficiency, I mean, that's kind of the, the buzzword of the day, I would say, like people are really trying to understand when that spend is worth it, right? I think a few people have mentioned, um, you know, making sure that it's kind of worth it to be open and making sure it's, you know, what days, what times, things like that make it. Um, also knowing how using that staff is efficient, right? So they're experimenting a lot with, you know, should we try having a runner on all the time, so that there's someone who's just running beer and our staff that's on the floor is on the floor. They're trying to figure out exposure even, so, is it better to have one, you know, 5 people that work together all the time, and another group of 5 people that work together all the time, so that that staff is limited and exposure if something were to happen. And that they have another group of staff to pull back. So just I would just say a lot more creativity around how they manage it and a lot more looking at the numbers to make sure it's making sense.

Speaker 2 [48:08] So what is the sweet spot for your respective businesses on staffing efficiency, and I'll start with

Speaker 4 [48:15] Adam. Well, I mean, it really depends on which night of the week it is, right? But essentially, for us, you know, we look to see. What is the minimum number of humans we can employ, right, from a business perspective, I don't wanna just have everybody in there, but I also don't wanna make my employees' lives miserable. So it's usually like, what's the minimum plus one, and if I can, if I get enough uh customers, whether that's uh through curbside pickup or that's coming into the patio or whatever. Then, then that makes it worth it, you know, in the past I had historic data to look back at now with COVID-19, who knows who's coming out, when, where, whatever, you know, like, so I mean it only takes one news article to make everybody stay home and say, you know what, I'm gonna skip going out this weekend. So, but I mean for us in general, like on an average night it's not too busy, not too slow, we usually have 3 staff on and we have sort of like reevaluated the hours that we're open so that we can do it all in one shift and not do so many split shifts because then that requires fewer people, uh, you know, to cover breaks and all that, all that kind of stuff, um. Yeah.

Speaker 2 [49:32] How about you, Dani? Uh, how are you guys achieving staff efficiency?

Speaker 5 [49:37] I mean, it's actually not that different to pre-COVID. Um, like I said, we run a really lean, efficient staff. Um, so we have, um, so we're open 7 days a week. We're open, um, 12 to 8 Sunday through Tuesday, and then basically like 11 to either 10 or 11 Wednesday through, um, Saturday. And so. Saturdays, Sunday afternoon, and Friday nights, we have 3 people on. The rest of the time we have 2 people on. Um, we started, I mean that running that with counter, just counter service is pretty easy. Um, table service, we basically gave it a shot and then we're all like, we're just all the owners are just gonna be here and back up to see like if you guys need it, and it, and it's worked out. Um, we basically, I mean, and we have a, um, Our tap room is technically 150 capacity with the, the just seated service, we're running at about like 85 right now. Um, and so 3 people can handle that with every table full. Um, and it's, it's worked out pretty well and every, you know, everybody kind of is, it, I think it helps that we're now a year and a half into this and everybody's pretty good at their job and pretty used to. So working a busy taproom. Um, but yeah, I mean, between the six of us, everybody's working taproom shifts, um, including myself, 3 days a week, um, our GM, our head of marketing, who's also been running wholesales and working in the taproom 3 or 4 days a week. And then our, our brewer is the only person after COVID, we kind of moved out of the tap room. So he, like, backs us up on Sundays if we need him. But, um, for the most part, we've tried to keep him out of the taproom post-COVID.

Justin Fante [51:14] So it sounds like things are, you know, definitely changing and probably a little bit stressful. How, what do you guys do to keep your staff's morale up, Adam, what do you guys do at Labyrinth to make sure everybody is on the same page and, and. Motivated.

Speaker 4 [51:29] Um, you know, uh, That's, that's interesting, you know, there have been a lot more, uh, basically just like checkups that I do on the staff, you know, we just had a storm come through here. Any, any of you in Massachusetts probably experienced it too, so I, I had a tree fall in my dining room. It didn't, didn't hurt anything, but it landed with a thud, and I thought I, I was gonna need a new dining room. But, you know, it's basic things like checking in on my staff, making sure they're OK, being a little flexible if they need some time off, they need some flex time to pick up a kid from daycare or whatever it is. Um, and just basically, we do a lot more making sure they are OK, and not just, hey, do you feel well, more like, hey, how are you feeling inside? Do you need a hug? Not that we're hugging cause it's COVID, so we'll just jazz hands from a distance, but, you know, we're just trying to keep a pulse. We're a really small staff, so we're kind of like a really weird family, so, you know, um, it's It's just a matter of making sure that everybody is ready to, ready to come to work, and if they need anything additional, or if they need an extra break or whatever it is, taking care of that, so that the general stress of living life during a pandemic doesn't also isn't also added to the stress of our taprooms busy and there's, you know, a lot of people out on the patio, etc. So, again, it, it goes back to us just trying to treat everybody in our space as uh uh just A human being that, you know, deserves understanding and, and whatnot. I feel like I should do the character stare now.

Justin Fante [52:56] You know, I feel like we should do a, a jazz hands fake heart. I don't know. Danny, what do you guys do at Redemption Rock to keep staff morale up?

Speaker 5 [53:04] Um, I, you know, I second everything that Adam said. I think, um, having open communication is my favorite thing. Um, and I, we've always done, uh, weekly formal meetings every Wednesday morning for An hour and a half, we kind of review the last week, but we're also able to kind of, um, check in with everybody as far as, you know, what's going on just personally for the week, um, and going through like any issues that people have, whether it's a taproom thing or personal stuff or it's kind of just like our airing of grievances, um, and also just problem solving session. Um, that we all sit down and kind of listen to each other and, and figure out, you know, what needs to be taken care of, and we always try and end on a positive note. Um, uh, we do like shout outs for customers and, and team members, um, you know, people that have just, like, uh, you know, did something awesome that week. Um, also, we're a very, um, dog friendly tap room. Uh, when we, we've happened since like last summer. And we leaned into it hard. We did like a whole dog calendar thing last year. Um, and honestly, I feel like just having our regular dogs back in and then meeting new dogs ends up just being like, like, it is so brightening and brings so much joy into the taproom just having like a puppy hanging out and like playing on the couch and stuff. So, I do think having dogs in the taproom a lot has definitely been good for everybody's mole.

Justin Fante [54:24] I bet. Um, so for brewery owners out there who are considering implementing these types of models, what, what do they need to know? Adam, let's start with you.

Speaker 4 [54:33] Uh, I mean, for, for us, I mean, I'd say if you're going to You need to be OK with having a higher Number on the balance sheet for for wages, for staff time, you know, um, but. I would caution anybody who looks at that and says, oh gosh, we gotta keep those numbers low because My staff is awesome and I would. I would bet they're probably better than a lot of other staffs, and I don't mean to brag about them, um, but we have had zero staff turnover with the exception of one human who left to pursue other things in life, but Um Everybody from the day we opened is still employed with us, and so I think just treating your staff well and paying them well, regardless of whether it's a tip model like we do where they keep the tips or or Danny's model where they're donating it, I think the base is that the staff is compensated well and valued and treated like. Like human beings, and so, you know, you can't just give them more money and treat them like garbage, so it kind of goes hand in hand. So I would just say that don't worry about what the numbers look like. I mean, Treat your staff well, train them well, give them the tools, respect them, and you will get tenfold returns, you know, from customer feedback, customers returning. Again, if I'm out in the tap room, something crazy is going on, but my staff's out there all the time, and that's why my regulars are coming back. They wanna see them, not so much of me, which I don't, I understand, but, you know, it's, it's them, they're the ones increasing the value of my brand. So, I mean, yeah, that's all I have to

Justin Fante [56:13] say about that. OK. Dani, it looks like you agree. Anything you'd wanna add?

Speaker 5 [56:17] Yeah, I echo a lot of that in that you really have to look at it holistically, um, and it's not just about one number. You have to see what goes into that number. Um, you know, our, our very similar turnover. Um, we've had one person leave and that was to do a total career change, um, and, and we're really building something from the ground up. And also we have so many of our Our customers to, like, everybody talks about the awesome vibe in our taproom, and it's their favorite place, and a big part of that is the staffing. And, um, and that's our staff that's doing that, um, and bringing those people in and making people who are like hardcore fans of ours. Um, and that comes from those staff interactions. And I think that you, you don't get that from a bottom line.

Speaker 2 [56:59] Nancy, you're, you're in a, a, a tech world that mixes with the, the beer industry here, and so much of what's been built in the beer industry has been You know, through loyal workers at these taprooms who are, you know, building customer bases. But uh, we're in a moment where COVID-19 has, has taken a lot away from us and it's led to a consumer base that is looking for more options that are contactless and touch-free. How do you see the intersection of tech and I, I guess, innovation within the brewery and also hospitality colliding here?

Speaker 6 [57:43] Um, that's probably my favorite question, because I think most people would expect that I would say something about tech replacing humans, um, no way, right? The technology is a tool to make your service experience shine, to make your guest experience excellent, and it should never be used ever to replace quality service. Um, and I think, you know, the value of kind of investing in things like touch-free is about making your guests feel comfortable, right? If your guests want a touch-free experience, then provide that for him, for them, right? If what matters more to your guests is, you know, having that extra space, um, so that they feel comfortable and you can only, you know, kind of do one or the other, um, go that way, right? So really listen to what your guests are saying, the questions they're asking. Um, and then use the technology to support that. Um, don't let this technology sort of drive what you do. Um, another little piece I would add to that is I'm seeing right now a lot of people, you know, and I understand it, we're, you know, we're in this boat too, of kind of trying to just hang on and get through this, and I think sometimes when that happens you have a tendency to just reach out and grab for things like, oh, there's a tool over here that can do that, or a tool over here that can do that. Um, and people are making changes a little quicker than they understand. So I do also say it's a good idea to really think about what is the guest experience I wanna provide first, like, what is the experience I want my guests to have in my tap room on Monday when they, when we open back up, and then what are the tools that can help support that. So just be really intentional in how and why you choose the technology that supports your experience.

Justin Fante [59:31] So I think this question is, is a good one for all three of you. Um, how do you see taproom service evolving as new innovations come through it? Nancy, let's start with you since you're, you're the expert. How can taproom service evolve?

Speaker 6 [59:43] Um, you know, I think the ideal should be using the interaction between the staff and the guests to improve that experience and enhance that experience. So just as an example, right, a lot of folks are moving towards kind of the floating service model where their staff is getting out from behind the bar, um, and when they're out from behind the bar, they're engaging with their guests, they're upselling new products, they're educating their guests and expanding their palates. Um, and I think we're gonna continue to see more and more of that, right? Like we can all get good beer at home, like we can, and the reason that we go out is because we want that experience, we want that education, we want that to all be enhanced, and again, the technology is there to support that, and I think, you know, as technology providers are paying attention to what's happening in this industry, the tools should adapt and support that.

Justin Fante [1:00:40] Adam, how do you see taproom service at Labyrinth evolving, uh, with different innovations coming down the line?

Speaker 4 [1:00:47] You know, I think Nancy hit the nail on the head when she said that the technology is going to be helpful and not going to replace, uh, that. I mean, even once our tap room shut down, we still did events like we normally would. Um, except they were digital. We did happy hours online, so people would curbside pickup and buy beer and go home and drink it, because that's, that's what we could do. So, sure, the technology was there to stream like we're doing here, and we can talk about the flavor profile of the beer and the process and all that other stuff, and that's great, but it still came down to the human beings on the other side of the camera in this instance, you know, uh, making that connection to your customers. I don't think that's ever going away, right? Like. Having that human to human contact, because, again, as Nancy said, you can get good beer, go to the liquor store, buy good beer, sit at home and drink it, like. I'm glad you wanna come to my taproom because my beer is great, but at the end of the day, you could just buy it at the, at the package store. Why, why do you come in? You come in to interact with the staff, to do an activity, to have, to have some sort of meaningful human bond with another person. Technology Can enhance that, but it's never gonna replace it. Like we're never gonna have robot servers, and if we do, please just fire me, uh, you know.

Justin Fante [1:02:06] Dani, will, uh, Redemption Rock ever have robot servers?

Speaker 5 [1:02:09] No. Uh, we actually, so even like we have looked at like the model where you put the like QR code on the table and people scan that and put it, and we ultimately decided to not do that. We have like a flag system where you put the flag up when you're ready to order because, honestly, so much of our relationships with our customers is based on those conversations. And we have a lot of people who aren't big beer drinkers, but they come in because they've heard our taproom's cool and, and so they want to, to a little bit of help or they just want to say hi and ask how we're doing. So we decided we would do a table model, um, with staff getting out, but still, you know, make it so that people didn't have to constantly go check on everybody. Um, but I think I wholeheartedly agree that I think that that human element is really necessary, but I think also back to like what Dave was saying about the future of Fresh Fest and that, you know, the pandemic and, and this use of technology has forced us to rethink things, and some effects have been bad and some effects have been good, and one of the good effects is that it, it Forced us to learn tools like Zoom and way to ways to amplify our messages, um, and have these conversations and these collaborations and reach bigger audiences in ways that can really enhance the experience rather than, um, yeah, replacing any piece of it.

Justin Fante [1:03:25] It's a perfect place to leave it. Uh, we are out of time. We've actually gone over time. Thank you guys all so much. Um, really appreciate all your time because we know that you're super busy, but Justin, why don't you, um, take us home?

Speaker 2 [1:03:37] Yup, we'll be right here next Thursday, 3 p.m. Eastern discussing private equity. We'll have the folks from Farley Turner, Arlington Capital Advisors, Cascadia Capital, and Cowan, 3:00 p.m. Eastern, be here. Also, uh, Brewals, August 27th, also in this space. Register for free at Brewbound.com. Until then, we'll see you next week.