Brew Talks Virtual: Dogfish Head, Trillium, pFriem Discuss Portfolio Strategies

Justin Kendall [00:20] Welcome to Spooky Brew Tas, brought to you by Dogfish Head. My name is Justin Kendall, and I'm the editor of Brewbound, and I hope you all have your silver shamrock masks and are ready for 2 hours of beer business talk. Joining me on this spooky edition of Brewals is my colleague, Jess Infante, who is drinking a giant cocktail.

Speaker 2 [00:44] Hello, how are you?

Justin Kendall [00:47] Clearly well. I'm clearly psychologically well. So thanks to everyone for joining us out there. Um, let's get this thing going for real now. We're in the midst of the fall season and it's getting scary out there, even scarier than my silver shamrock mask. Uh, we've just come out of the reset period, and many of you have all pitched your wholesalers and retailers on your 2021 plans. So we wanted to bring together 3 craft brewers with differing business models, as well as a craft-focused wholesaler, a craft-focused beer seller, and the chief economist of the brewers Association to discuss how they're all approaching core and new products, and innovating beyond the liquid as 2021 closes in. First, we'll be joined by the leaders from Dogfish Head, Trillion Brewing, and Frame Family Brewers to discuss their portfolio strategies and how they're innovating, whether that's new products or new ways they're reaching consumers as COVID-19 persists. Then, we'll catch up with the leaders from the Brewers Association and elite brands of Colorado, as well as halftime beverage to discuss how those products fit within the wholesale and retail puzzle. Jess. We gotta thank our sponsors. Could you do that for me, please?

Speaker 2 [02:09] Sure, yeah. So big, before we get started, a big thank you to our sponsors, Dogfish Head for presenting Brew Talks, of course, and Live Oak Bank, Pneumatic Scale Angeles, Orchestra Software, and the Reyes Beer division. So we really appreciate everybody's support, and just cause it might not actually be obvious, I am dressed up as my Lord and Savior, Ina Garten, uh, who you might have seen preparing gigantic cosmopolitans earlier in the pandemic. And my virtual background is Max and Danny's house from Hocus Pocus, which is uh right down the street from me.

Justin Kendall [02:40] So what, what's in your cocktail?

Speaker 2 [02:44] Uh, water and cherry Powerade.

Justin Kendall [02:50] Uh, so, let's, let's, let's meet our panel. Let's get this thing going. Of course, joining us today is Sam Calione, the co-founder of Dogfish Head. Sam, who are you dressed up as today?

Speaker 3 [03:02] Uh, I don't, I think I might be one of the Beastie Boys from the sabotage video. I don't even know which one actually, but that's, I think the roughly the look I'm going for. We actually had a giant carton of wings, wigs and mustaches here at Doerfish, so I'm proud that I didn't have to go far to find my, my uniform, but, uh, we're super proud to be longtime sponsors of this event, uh, Justin and Jess, and you, uh, you, we, you guys, we've curated an awesome lineup for both panels, so I'm super psyched to be here.

Justin Kendall [03:32] And not sabotaging us today is Esther Tatro, co-founder of Trillium Brewing. What's up, Esther?

Speaker 4 [03:40] Hopefully, I don't sabotage this. No tech issues, fingers crossed here. Um, just hanging out with, you know, my wildlife. What else defines the period of COVID but the Tiger King. So will Carole Baskin inspiration get us going.

Justin Kendall [03:54] That's the perfect costume for 2020. And finally joining us today is Josh Frame, co-founder of Frame Family Brewers. Josh, no costume, but we're happy to have you anyway.

Speaker 5 [04:06] I'm, I'm like a party boy. I'm double fisting at noon my time. I think that qualifies, right?

Speaker 3 [04:13] If we

Justin Kendall [04:13] could change that to uh Allagash, you could easily be Rob Todd. Oh,

Speaker 5 [04:19] that, oh, that would have been a great posture, but I could, I could probably pause and meet Rob Todd.

Justin Kendall [04:23] America's favorite Alleghashian. So, a quick reminder to our viewers out there, if you have questions. And I'm sure you do after seeing this intro. Text us at 617-336-8560. That's 617-336-8560. We'll try to get all the answers that you want, so, shoot them our way. Let's get going here. It's the height of the spooky season, and the beer industry has already seen plenty of frights this year. What is the scariest thing you're facing right now, Sam Calionei?

Speaker 3 [04:56] So I'd say in the context of the beverage industry, not in the context of the election next, next week in the pandemic, I'd say, but related certainly to the pandemic and the trends that are coming, coming through it, you know, I'd probably say the scariest thing that we're looking at would be, uh, our need to re-engage the youngest of age drinkers, uh, in, in craft beer as the thing that they're coming, coming into age. Excited to try. We know our industry is really fragmented in a lot of ways. That's a beautiful thing, as, you know, beer and Beyond Beer have kind of the, the definitions have, have expanded, but making sure that uh beer is the go to beverage, uh, for younger drinkers at a moment when, you know, wine and spirits are, are taking more, more, more share, particularly spirits, uh, it's something I think we're, we're all thinking about. Esther, I gotta

Justin Kendall [05:54] ask you, what's scaring you at this moment?

Speaker 4 [05:58] For me, it's still COVID, the times of COVID, so we have spent the last several years building our on-premise experiences, creating multiple places for people that we can welcome people in and share trillion with them in our own houses. And so just seeing how long the pandemic has lasted and how long it's going to continue, um, and just hoping that even when we get to the other side of this, which who knows how long that's going to be. Are people's behaviors and patterns going to change? Are they going to feel comfortable going to a packed bar and restaurant and, you know, going out for drinks again?

Justin Kendall [06:38] That's definitely scaring a lot of folks. Uh, today, Revolution Brewing announced that they were going to shut down their pub temporarily. We've seen that from a number of companies. So, yes, it, that's definitely something that's of concern to many out there.

Speaker 3 [06:53] Josh, uh, what's spooking you this season?

Speaker 5 [06:57] You know, continued effects of COVID, uh, you know, everything from make sure everybody's safe and, you know, always the, the scare of having to shut down or turn off production. You know, we've had so many hits out here beyond just COVID itself with the wildfires and having to shut down, you know, you can only take so many hits, and so that, and I think, you know, we've been a company historically that has been very consumer first and taking care of folks and We're not as nimble as we normally are and, uh, we're in a very much reactionary mode. And so, you know, making sure keeping the soap alive here is fun, but people are fragile out there and, uh, you know, we don't, we are not in a position to, uh, react as much as we have in the past.

Speaker 2 [07:41] So, it's the end of October. Uh, let's start with shelf resets in the off-premise. The spring resets were basically scuttled and never really came back. Sam, how did both the lack of a spring reset and overall shifts in consumer buying habits in the pandemic affect the shifts that you made in the dogfish head business heading into the fall resets this year?

Speaker 3 [07:59] Yeah, so I mean, we were definitely, uh, as all breweries were, were, we're just kind of caught like deer in the headlights when, uh, the pandemic accelerated, you know, called February and March. But I think Dogfish was in a, in a uniquely challenging position for a top 20 you know, IRI defined craft brand in that, you know, we were at a, at The highest premium, you know, commanding about 35% premium over, uh, the average craft beer, and that's mostly because we focused a shit ton of on-premise. We focused on sort of higher end, uh, a lot of indie retailers versus chain focus and a lot of smaller package focused individual bottles, worldwide stout and, and. And, and stuff. Um, so we had to kind of reinvent ourselves quickly, you know, we lost 30% of our business overnight when the on-prem shut down and we were in like 1/5 of the chains, uh, that most of the top 2020, uh, IRI craft brands were in terms of points of distribution. So, you know, uh, you know. We, we shipped it as quickly as we could and uh by July, we got our 12 packs of our core brands out there to an extent that we, we never expected to. And we had our biggest shipping month in the history of our company in July and our, you know, our, our, uh, our, our 12-pack trends are up 50%. 5% I think year to date. So that was probably the biggest adjustment that we made. We accelerated uh a, a focus on bigger packages and frankly bigger customers, chain chain customers as the pantry loading phenomena proved to be a trend, not just a moment within the pandemic.

Speaker 2 [09:42] So what did you hear from wholesalers about their adjusted expectations, and what did they need most for success in the winter months ahead? What, what should we be all thinking about?

Speaker 3 [09:52] Well, I think when you think of the, the, the, the wholesaler environment, I'm looking to hear Terry's comments on this in the second panel, but I would just say there's, there, it's, it's, it's ironic that for years, as, as the, the acceleration of new breweries have happened, you walk into a retailer, the joke is the first thing they say is, uh, skew proliferation sucks. There's too many things that you're asking me to sell. And what do you got that's new that I should be thinking about, you know. So it's like, it's just like double-edged sword, you know, and that's I guess what the focus of today's talk is about. It's a place of innovation in a world where building brands, uh, matters. Um, so, but I think what we are hearing from our, our, uh, distribution partners is you need to be way more thoughtful about what innovations you're gonna bring to them and show that it's not just incremental to your own portfolio and your own sort of strategy. You building your brand, but how is it incremental to their business when there are so many flagship packages within beer and without outside of beer, seltzers, canned cocktails, etc. that are driving their business that they're not gonna give a lot of focus to a new innovation unless it's super thoughtful on how it's gonna be incremental to their business. So it's like you gotta build as a brewery, I think a business plan looking. Backwards from what does the consumer want to what does the retailer want to what does the distributor want to what do you, what do you want, uh, to move forward if you're a distributor-focused business, you know, if you're a tasting room business where you're direct to the consumer, I think you could be a lot, uh, you know, creativity is limitless in terms of what you put forth for new products, but when you're relying on the three-tier, you gotta be really thoughtful about the needs of those partners.

Speaker 2 [11:29] Definitely a lot of teamwork that needs to go on. Um, so, Josh, how is the fall reset different for you guys this year, and how did you shift your strategy to, uh, adapt to the changing market?

Speaker 3 [11:48] Josh, you might be on mute. Oh, no,

Speaker 5 [11:51] my, sorry, I got bumped off. Do you guys hear me? Oh no,

Speaker 2 [11:53] yeah, we can hear you. OK. You want me to, you want me to repeat the

Speaker 3 [11:56] question? I thought you meant Rob Todd actually shot you when you said you bump. I'm glad you're still there.

Speaker 2 [12:03] So Josh, how were fall resets different for you guys this year, and how did you shift your strategy to adjust to all the things that have been changing in the marketplace?

Speaker 5 [12:10] Absolutely, that's a great question. I think a lot of 11 that a lot of us are wrestling with and managing. Uh, historically, uh, you know, we're, we run a traditional, uh, beer business working with wholesalers and having a tasting room. Uh, and within our wholesale business, we were 50% draft of our total portfolio volume-wise. And so obviously when COVID hit, um, we had to make some pretty quick decisions. Fortunately for us, we're in a huge expansion project in order to get more cans to the marketplace. So we've been in a, uh, um, supply constraint rather than demand constraint. And so we turned up the volume on our canned beers, uh, as quickly as we could. Biggest struggle with that is then uh reacting to getting the empty aluminum cans, uh, which we struggle with throughout the summer. Uh, we're able to manage to get enough volume up to at least handle our current capacity. Then within all that, we decided that um moving forward, we're gonna have to make a radically different approach in the near term to our product portfolio with uh launching two more brands of canned beers, making a total of 4 flagship brands, uh, and then Shipped from, uh, making a brewery, about a 90% packaged brewery. Uh, so fall recess have been very interesting, uh, and I would say a little bit overwhelming and exciting. I, I would say we brought all this two new brands to the marketplace, turned on chain placements that we had, uh, previously pushed off, and then we, we got like a, a waterfall over us of noise, uh. Not having enough beer, uh, which is a good situation to be in, but nonetheless, uh, hard to tell people no and having to make some hard decisions and staying focused. Fortunately, we turn on our new brew house in 2 weeks, uh, which is gonna boost up our capacity. But then I think at that point we'll be, we have how much our, uh, can supplier has allocated to us, and that's gonna be really our, our high end of what we can do with cans.

Speaker 2 [14:12] So launching two new brands in a year like this is, is a huge accomplishment. You guys should be really proud of that, but that really differs from a usual year for you. You're known for creating as many 150 new offerings in a year. That's a lot of beer. Uh, and those brands are usually tested on draft. Obviously, that's not possible in 2020, so how did you adjust?

Speaker 5 [14:32] So the, the good news I would say for us is that we're, we've always been quality and innovation first. And so by being a brewery that's uh always tinkering and focusing on innovation and quality, you always got a bunch of tricks in the, in your, in your, in your backpack. And so we, we felt very confident about launching, uh, the new brands, Free Pale, uh, which I saw Sam drinking earlier. That's, uh, one, we're given a nod to, uh, a new, a new wave of, uh, of pale ales. It's, it's bright, it's fresh, it's super hoppy, and it's also knowing what the Consumers want and what we're also excited about. So as it's been super hard to cut back on our portfolio, I, it, it always goes to show if you're, if you're focusing on your beer, focusing on your business, and having the ability to react, you know, you're always, even in a hard situation, you're, you're gonna have some options to work with.

Justin Kendall [15:26] Esther, Trillium is a different beast than dogfish head or frame. You, you primarily sell directly to consumers. Um, how has Trillium's strategy for reaching customers changed over the last 7 months into a pandemic versus, say, the business back in February?

Speaker 4 [15:45] Yeah, I mean back in February, we were all excited and getting ready to like launch our spring-summer season, which again is about bringing people in and gathering together and having great experiences and Summer in New England is the best. So um for us while we didn't have to worry about the distribution chain and the network that Sam and Josh did, and it wasn't about just like what are these other You know, the other variables in the chain going to require from us, we then had to worry about like, well how am I still gonna bring consumers into us. So for us, um, we really focus like we've got a set of core values that kind of guide everything that we do and similar to both Sam and Josh like innovation is just who we are as growers. So, um, we apply that. I know we're gonna talk about this a lot later, but like we apply that to. All parts of the business and so for us we found out like what are what are our consumers. What is our fan base looking for right now and we felt that that was still um connecting and being part of a community so um engagement was really important for us, so we changed our communication strategy to make sure people were still in touch and then we had to change our operational strategy to make sure that they could still reach us. So um you know we're going to talk about this but like our curbside. Pickup was an important way for us to connect with our customers, make sure that they could still come to us in a safe, reliable, consistent way, and then still get our product in their hands. So from a production standpoint, the beers that we were making, we, you know, we had beer in tanks already. So while the pandemic was changing and evolving like day by day. Beer and tank is what it is. So we already had new brands that we were committed to putting out. Um, we were still packaging. We do most of our business direct to consumer retail sales, so, uh, we just continued on the path that we were on and we just kind of watched day by day and see, make sure that there is still demand, like what can we do to connect with people. Will they come in once they're coming in and then by now our customer base trusts us, so we still continue to put out kind of the array of beers that we enjoy, um, give the, give our customers some of that diversity to keep them coming back week after week once we demonstrated that we had a safe way for them to do so.

Justin Kendall [18:19] So, ballpark, what would you say, uh, because I know that you guys did a major, major shift to delivery and you discussed curbside. So, how do those orders sort of compare to someone coming into one of Trillium's locations to buy beer? Are, are you seeing an increased order size for somebody that's ordering delivery? Are you seeing an increased order size for curbside?

Speaker 4 [18:42] You know, part of that, um, so Curbside is kind of the same, so we allow people to order online and actually it ended up working out. We've gotten very positive feedback from our customers because we had If I back up a little bit, we'd already been set up for that. We've been doing reservation system for special bottle releases because we've long had the criticism that I can't get there, like you didn't tell me that you were going to release this, I have to take time off, now I've missed it. So we had, we struggled with balancing demand for special releases um and meeting. Kind of all of our customers and making sure that we're accessible. So that's been a struggle for a while. So we had shifted to a new format online already that we've been executing for about a year or so for special release bottles so you can reserve it. So the curbside pickup actually we have our defined inventory. It is what it is, but it meant that. You could do it on your own schedule that day. So it actually made things a lot easier and we found that we had to communicate a lot in the beginning because people were still coming like right at open. I mean we have like a line of cars that opened when we had pre-sold for the day. So it wasn't like you were going to miss out and we had to let people know. You can come at 2 this afternoon when there's no lines and we don't have to worry about, you know, a parking situation or creating a backlog on a major road. So once we did that, it actually became a lot easier because people could do it when they felt safe, when they were available. And the same went for delivery. Our data there is a little bit biased because we had to, um, for the beginning for the. Most of the time we were doing it, we had a minimum order just to make it like possible um and easier for us to execute so we had a minimum case order um but we were still seeing some pretty consistent patterns once we were able to adapt and then people could buy their own, they could create their own mixes and and um kind of buy as much as they needed.

Speaker 2 [20:48] So a theme of the pandemic was that consumers really wanted tried and true brands and larger packs. Sam, Dogfish made a, a few, you know, adjustments to, to meet those needs, like shifting to 12 packs for the first time. How else did you see that play out in your portfolio sales?

Speaker 3 [21:04] Well, as I said, I think, uh, in the distribution side of our business, you know, distributors and, and major retailers want to see you be more judicious with the number of new innovations you bring to them, and they equally want you to come with like thoughtful marketing and business plans that show. If you get that opportunity to be on their shelves or in their truck, how you're gonna create velocity and pull, not just to ask them to push it, but the brewery is responsible for creating the pull with the branding, the marketing, and how well differentiated, uh, the liquid itself is. So, you know, what we really It accelerated what I think was an expectation of, you know, top 100 breweries that rely on, on, on, on sort of coast to coast distribution of fewer and deeper innovations, but also focus on the core, core flagship brands that like, like you said, just have accelerated and benefit from the pandemic cause so many more people are buying, they're not shopping. They're going in like, oh my God, I know that. I, I, I know that beer. I'm getting the hell out. They're not like perusing the shelf and being, you know, thinking about it at the point of purchase the way they were pre-pandemic. So similarly, we, we were pretty lucky and prescient with timing of putting a small canning line in our restaurant brewery, so that at the same moment we were doing, you know, uh, deeper, fewer innovations nationally, we could still throw shit at the wall locally. And do can releases that uh local fans uh were excited to get and could only get here. So when they made a pilgrimage to the beach, and a lot of folks during the pandemic were doing closer vacations, uh, so being two hours from DC. Baltimore, Philly 3.5 from Manhattan we kind of benefited from that so our can release timing was great and even within that we temper the number of brand new innovative beers we release like we did one recently called Regen Ale made with 100%. Uh, regeneratively grown grains and we track the carbon footprint of it and we'll sprinkle something like that and that we, we've never released before with a chicory stout or a raison d'etre. We bring back a throwback beer that we have no aspirations of releasing nationally, but certainly our mid-Atlantic backyard where We're drawing our tourism from, there's a lot of folks with fond memories of those beers that are no longer in distribution that are psyched to come down and get a 4 pack of 16 ounce, uh, chicory stout or raison d'etre. So that's probably, uh, the, the most top of mind way that we're navigating what, what, what, what you're talking about.

Speaker 2 [23:38] Did any of those special releases surprise you? Anything go over really well that you weren't expecting to?

Speaker 3 [23:44] Um, well, yeah, actually that regen ale, you know, it was a dry season, you know, we want to be a farmhouse style cause it was celebrating the farmers that are committing to regenerative, uh, growing practices, and we had to charge a little bit more for it because of the cost associated with that, uh, that growing process. So we're a little anxious, you know, um, about that, but it sold, uh, extremely, extremely. Well, and then similarly, you know, I saw Josh was having one of our Hazy O's, which is a national kind of big bet brand for us. There you go. And, and, uh, and, uh, for next year, but we chose to start producing it and selling it in Delaware only to kind of build, you know, recognition and anticipation for it going nationally. So we're selling out our own properties and that's getting a really good, uh, reception as well.

Speaker 2 [24:31] That's great. Josh, how did Freme's big two, Pilsner and IPA perform in the early March to May period, and have they maintained that level or into the fall, or did they like grow into the summer? Um, what were sales of those two beers like?

Speaker 5 [24:45] For sure, you know, I think in a, in a world where we felt that flagships were disappearing, I, I, I don't think flagships are disappearing. If anything, this has shown how important it is to have flagships and to balance your portfolio. We were so grateful to have two powerhouses like Freeing Pills and Fream IPA. Uh, they They represented about 60 to 65% of our total wholesale volume pre-COVID. They, we were able to turn them up closer to probably about 90% of our total wholesale volume, and what it did is it allowed us to stay nimble as draft was coming back on a little bit here in the Pacific Northwest, as people had outdoor patios, created a little bit more space that We're gonna have a little bit of draft. Uh, if we knew that we could put it into package or in the draft, it gave us more confidence level to produce more beer and to be nimble. And one thing that was really interesting that we found as well is similar to what Sam was saying about, you know, you have like the blinders on in the grocery store and you're grabbing tried and true things that you know and you believe in. We also heard from the, uh, the, the, the draft retail buyers that They like, flagships are great, we know we normally buy innovative stuff from you guys, but we want fresh, like, if it, if it's fresh, we're we're, we're in. And so it's OK that you guys are doing less uh. I would say variety they normally do. We want something that we can believe in, uh, that our customers know and that they can trust, and that is selling really, really well. Um, and then we're able to do that furthermore with our launch of our two new brands. And I think it was, it was a good decision for us and it's, um, allowed us to streamline the brewery, stay focused, and, uh, give high quality experience and fresh beer.

Justin Kendall [26:34] That's a good note for folks out there with the, the fresh beer. I mean, hopefully more wholesalers are, are taking that approach. Um, one of the things that we did see though, with the pandemic is this move to larger packs. Josh, did you have to consider any of that, or have you explored those pack sizes?

Speaker 5 [26:52] We, you know, we have, uh, for us, you know, our, our opportunity for our size is a lot bigger than what we can currently produce. And for a moment, we tried out with more, uh, different channels than we've ever used before, like Costco, for example. Uh, and we saw Success that actually scared us. we had to shut down, uh, because it was, we didn't have enough beer. And so we're like, all right, we're working within a scope of just, uh, taking care of our current customers and adding like a next level of chains in that we're not there yet to do the volume packs, uh, for our size.

Speaker 3 [27:35] You are on mute, Justin.

Justin Kendall [27:38] Esther, for a company such as Trillium that has core offerings, but also keeps consumers coming back with new ones, have you adapted your portfolio strategy in terms of the varieties and quantities of beers you're producing, uh, and was there a run for the classic trillion brands, or not really a thing for, for your brand and more business as usual in terms of constant innovation?

Speaker 4 [28:01] Yeah, um, it's a good question. Not, not really. So we have by core brands, we have kind of rotational core brands that we come back to multiple times a year. So that's probably the closest thing you could consider as a core for us. It's something like Congress Street, IPA Four Point Pale Ale. Um, even with those brands being consistent throughout our history and kind of throughout the year, we'll still play around and do like Double Dry Hop Congress Street or Galaxy Dry Hop 4 Point pale ale. So we kept, we kind of continued with that pattern of production because Since our consumer base is around us and they are coming in to the brewery to get it, it's something that keeps people excited coming back week after week. So you know you can, you can get Congress Street this week, it might be gone next week, but you can get something else, um, and just kind of keep your own resupply, keep it fresh, and we heard that a lot from customers. It gave them an outlet to get out of the house to come do pick up and like do curbside. Pick up and they were checking in consistently to see like what's new today, what's going to be new tomorrow, what are you releasing next week. So we stuck with um our consistent pattern of variety and kind of um keeping it fresh.

Speaker 2 [29:27] So friendly reminder for everybody watching along at home, you can text us questions and we will get them answered by these guys. The text line is 617-336-8560. So, here is one that came in through the line for, for everybody, really. I mean, with so much information out there right now on how customers feel about returning to taprooms and bars to have a beer. In your opinion, when do you see draft picking up again? And do you believe it'll be Substantial enough to help balance the current trend of packaged beer, far outselling draft beer due to the COVID-19 pandemic. Especially when you have the concern of an aluminum can shortage looming in the future. So, a couple of topics in there. I mean, first, I think it'd be really great for us to break down when you guys see the potential return of the on-premise. Sam, I know on the Boston beer earnings call last week, Jim said it'll probably be like a year until things get back to some kind of normal. So, how are you guys planning for the future?

Speaker 3 [30:20] Yeah, I think when you talk to. Oh, I was gonna just say what I think when you talk to on-premise operators that have like a bunch of units in a bunch of states, uh, there, no one's really planning longer than one quarter at a time, you know, everything's so in, in flux, uh, but then when you kind of look at what's forecasted for, you know, moving through the pandemic, I think it's probably likely that 2022 is the first normal year. I, I thought another interesting bellwethers we reached out and checked in with like the. Folks that do the big giant outdoor festivals, whether it's Firefly in our state or Bonnaroo or whatever and, and basically their ambition is, is the earliest they see being able to do massive outdoor festivals is July of next year. So that was, I thought that was an interesting data point that they're, you know, betting the, the farm again. So that's actually more hopeful than I, I think we were, we were being on the earnings call last year, which is encouraging. So it's anyone's guess, uh, but You know, we're, we're, we're we're already thinking about that and wanna make sure we're gonna be a really good partner for both small indie on-premise operators and the bigger groups that operate in multiple states.

Speaker 2 [31:31] Josh, what's your thinking on when on-premise might return?

Speaker 5 [31:34] Very similar to Sam's thoughts. I think, I don't think it's gonna be this big switch. Um, what we're preparing for, and we're gonna have a team meeting with our crew this morning, and we're talking about, we see the world as a If you use like July of next summer as a little bit of a delta, as long as there's some sort of vaccine and things that could help people feel more comfortable and safe come together, uh, that will help, and then we're using that as like a, a medium. If you will, but I think it's gonna be gradual. I mean, I think your, your, your smaller operators, uh, you know, your mom and pop's type places will probably be able to turn on a lot faster than like big stadium venues, for example. Uh, those are going to be a while, while longer. Events, big events are gonna be a while longer, I think. But with that, I think You have to keep the, the draft, uh, presence alive. I mean, there's such a, it's a part of the blood of our industry, that is a point where consumers have contact, and then they get to know the story and the brand. And so what we've done as a team is we're watching closely and we're, we're putting as much uh Energy as we can into the off-premise and supporting those guys, but then also making sure that we're not over banking on them, uh, to keep our business running. So we, we're gonna hold on to a higher level of a package product for our mix and then gradually over time we're gonna do what we can to build back up our sales team to support draft and events as appropriate and as people feel that's safe.

Speaker 3 [33:06] Gosh, do you, do you think that you'll, in your crystal ball 2022 is the first normal year on-premise? Do you guys think, or do you think maybe Esther can answer that too, that you'll, you'll, your brewery will ever get back to that ratio of on to off-prem that you had ahead of the pandemic, or do you think that's, that's always gonna be changed?

Speaker 5 [33:27] I mean, I think the math is funny for a a brewery like ours. Uh, I don't think we'll be a challenge as we're growing so much on package side to ever get back to 50% draft business. But we've said at the heart of our brewery that draft is super important and that we're going to put a lot of energy there. And so I think in 2022 that we'll be able to have enough energy and steam to start building it back. I think it's gonna take some time to get it back to pre-pandemic levels and You know, we've already seen it, at least out here in the Pacific Northwest, you know, we've lost some key restaurants and Key bars, but you know what, we have seen that new entrants will come into the category and people will open up things and uh and the younger generation wants to be out, wants to be with people, and that draft beer is a major part of that. I imagine Esther can attest to that with her business.

Speaker 4 [34:19] Yeah, um, same as you all, we don't see 2021 being a significantly different year for us. I think it's going to be a transition year for so many reasons. Um, so 2022 will probably be the first year that we look at it like maybe this is back to normal, um, and can use any of our prior year data as reference points for. Comparison, so we are hopeful again that like whether the vaccine gets widely adopted in our region, we have these on-premise experiences of our own that we are looking towards um activating in the spring and for next summer. We were very fortunate this year that we have a lot of outdoor space at all of our locations, so we were able to work with our landlords. To create additional space we haven't had before to kind of compensate for some of the occupancy that we lost by not having our indoor space available and using social distance requirements. So we've kind of modeled out a few scenarios where social distancing here allows us to get closer to full occupancy for next year, but in terms of, like I said before, in terms of what the consumer is going to feel comfortable. Doing. Our restaurant is a 500, almost 500 person occupancy. Like, are people going to want to cram in there again next year? I don't know. So I don't see that being an option until next summer and that's kind of what we've modeled out and we are planning, hoping, intending that 2022 is a more normal year for comparative purposes.

Justin Kendall [35:57] That's a long wait for, for a lot of folks, but for all the right reasons, um. We, we're here to talk innovation. Uh, we need to get to this next section. Sam, Dogfish Head and Boston Beer coming off your national sales summit. You have a slate of innovations from canned cocktails to non-alk beer that I'm drinking here and being attacked by a fly like Mike Pence, uh, to a hazy IPA, um, heading into 2021 with all these new offerings, does this foretell where you see the biggest growth opportunities in the category?

Speaker 3 [36:35] Well, uh, you know, like I said in the first round of questions, our distribution partners are expecting us to be more thoughtful and curating ourselves what innovations we're bringing to them versus asking them to be the arbiters of which, which, which innovations they put focus around. So part of what drove Jim and I to decide to do the merger was kind of already how complimentary our, our portfolio, our portfolios were with our. Focused on sours and IPAs and uh spirits, uh, now can cocktails is an extension of that and, and, you know, the tea, the, the, the lagers, the, the seltzers, uh, that, that, uh, ciders that, that, that were already strong in Boston Beers portfolio. So similarly, when we kind of look at a wheel with all the slices of pies of where we're, we're, we wanna go deep, we, we just thought about incrementality, you know, that's why we are going national with, with Uh, the dogfish and canned cocktails because we see that as very incremental to most of our distributor's business, whereas, you know, we're, we've been fucking with with, uh, seltzers in our own properties for a while, and we said, you know, with that, let's just keep that one local. Obviously in most, a lot, there's a lot of, uh, beverage companies coming with seltzers. Let's focus our seltzer energy on, on brand truly and, and the innovations off of that versus dogfish. So it's definitely a big like. Thought that goes into it and we make sure that we get the inputs, you know, in chats with our biggest retail customers and in chats with our distributors before we even make those commitments of which ones we wanna, uh, go deeper and meanwhile, every single one of our 10 retail locations, a little 10 gallon, 5 barrel, 7 barrel, 1020. All systems in, in our different locations around the country, we're not hampering them with, oh think about this trend or think about this space that we don't have in our portfolio. We're saying throw shit at the wall, you know, Jackson Pollock and, and let your own trends within your building say which ideas we wanna move forward for uh national uh consideration. That's kind of our, our process.

Justin Kendall [38:42] Josh, uh, as far as your North Star goes on brand innovation, where do you look, what, what sort of, uh, I guess, are the confines of where you're willing to play, or are there confines? Would you look into the white space of Beyond Beer, and if so, what interests you there?

Speaker 5 [39:01] Well, you know, I think the Beyond Beer is such an interesting conversation and it comes back down to the, the ethos of what an individual brand is doing. I think Sam just work on some really cool, like, how, like, how does, like Dogfish Head interact with it, uh, compared to truly, you know, what we see at Frame is we have so much opportunity to stay focused on. From like the age of our brand is and what we have chose to focus on, uh, you know, I'll take loggers, for example. Uh, there's, we see so much opportunity and growth in loggers, uh, is, we, we were part of opening up a Pandora's box here in the Pacific Northwest, and there's a huge thirst for high quality, innovative loggers, uh, and as well as Other really high quality sessionable beers and like the, the frame pale that we just launched, uh, we think, you know, uh, pale ale is very old style beer, uh, but not to be forgotten about. What, you know, with a little bit of a refresh, uh, a little bit of new blood, some things we learned from IP. And it has huge flavor, and it's a little bit over 5%. It's very, very drinkable. It kind of plays closer to that lager palate. And for us, where we're sitting, we have a great future just focusing on, on those, uh, and, and, and then the other. 148 different beers we're making. Uh, but I think it's fascinating to watch the, the different Beyond beverage. There's a lot of cool things happening, uh, but for us at where we're at as a company, we're not dipping our toes in too much, uh, because we have so much opportunity in with what we're currently working on, but it, it's exciting to see, uh, what our peers are doing out there with it.

Justin Kendall [40:42] Esther, when you look at the category, uh, and you look for white space, do you stay primarily within beer, or does Trillium ever look beyond that to see where, where the bounds are, you know, uh, you have, I mean, how do you think about other products, especially as you grow into your own farm location in the next few years, and, and, and sort of branch out?

Speaker 4 [41:07] Yeah, well, we've always thought, I mean, from the very beginning, we wanted to create Trillium as a modern New England farmhouse brewery. I've referenced this before like middle of Boston, not so farmy, but uh now we have a farm and so we've always looked at beer as an agricultural product and um when we were opening the restaurant, when we were planning for the restaurant a few years ago, we knew. You can't expect 500 people to only drink beer, you know, um, we don't make a truly gluten-free beer, for example, but like people want alternatives like whether it's by necessity and they want something gluten-free or they just think that they don't like beer. We've always kind of walked that line of like, well, you think you don't like beer, but what flavors do you like? What might you be interested in trying? That's one of the things that we really love is converting somebody who says, I don't drink beer. To try something like trying something they might not have experimented with before, but out of necessity, we knew that we needed something alternative for the restaurant and so thinking about the agricultural nature of beer, um, the farm that we have in Connecticut actually already had an established vineyard on it so we put wineries into a couple of our, um, into a couple of our buildings, our locations, so that way we could start playing around with. A variety of fermented beverages. So, um, unfortunately we lost the first crop year that we owned, but, um, we played around with winemaking and talked to some winemakers around the country and around the world, and we've also produced our own seltzer. We've only had it on draft, uh, for a short period of time. I've kind of lost track of time. I think that was maybe a year and a half ago, um, and so, you know, like now focusing. On production in the pandemic hasn't been a priority, but yeah, we are open to experimentation using kind of our core values of um innovation and integrity of the product itself. So using fresh fruit, using um our own natural processes, what can we do in that space. So, so yes, we do experiment and we are looking forward to trying to branch out in that space.

Speaker 2 [43:22] So there's a lot of daylight between the kinds of beers that get consumers really amped up to line up for releases, and then the kinds of beers that brewers themselves enjoy drinking. Do you guys ever feel pressure to put out kind of stunty beers like this? And what advice would you give to owners who might feel a little torn between the two? Esther, let's start with you.

Speaker 4 [43:41] I think, you know, Stumpty like there's a wide range, right, of what you could consider Stunty and so we've always said we love to experiment. Uh, I think there is a limit to what we're willing to do and it was funny when we first started collaborating, um, picking our heads up and meeting people around the world and thinking about putting a product into a beer that was like You know, maybe it's marshmallow, maybe it's ladyfinger. So that was a little uncomfortable for us at the time and so, um, we had fun, you know, we did it to have fun and play with it. So when you talk about what brewers like to drink and then what do consumers want. I think there's such a wide range and there's so much crossover there. So for example, like I used to personally only drink, um, you know, our 4 Point pale ale, like our Hazy Pales in the 6, 6.5, 7 range. Now I'm like hooked on our Pilsner. It's all I want. Like I just want to drink lager. So, um, or our daily serving series. And so one of the things that we've tried to do. I experiment with some traditional styles, not necessarily confine ourselves to like 1 or 2 or half dozen styles of beer. Uh, when we do have our on-premise experiences and like when we were opening the restaurant last year, we had up to 18 different styles with multiple varieties within that style on the menu at a given time. So, um, I think we try and do a little bit of everything because that's fun for our team because we've got a number of people on our team and they all want to drink something different. So when you talk about like what does it want to drink, it depends on who you talk to. So our advice is um focus on your own integrity like what feels true to you. So if you wanna play around like you wanna. Meet consumers where you think they are, does that align with what your values are? Can you feel good about creating whatever product you want to put out there, and then can you just have fun with it? So that's been our approach.

Speaker 2 [45:45] Totally. And I know you guys get super long lines, but I would never categorize anything that you've ever put out as being any of these stunty things that are aged on, on God knows what. So, Josh, I don't think this is something that you guys dabble in either. But what advice would you give to brewers who are maybe feeling the, the peer pressure to, to start throwing, you know, snack cakes and stuff into their tanks?

Speaker 5 [46:04] Totally, I mean, I'll start off with saying I very much agree with what Esther is saying is that you gotta, you have to go with your gut, your own ethos, and why, why did you start a brewery? Uh, and I think you can find a lot of answers within that, and what gets you up in the morning. You know, for us at Frame, we're a very uh brewer-driven brewery. Uh, we make, uh, beers that inspire us, that we want to drink, but we're, when you make 150 different beers, it's hard to say no to a certain style, right? I mean, uh, obviously with like a type of crew that I have on my team, uh, we have a very traditional focus, and then with a layer of innovation and going, and so, I, it's, they get a little bit wound up. We talk about doing something. Outside the box or like with the pastry beers or uh different realms of hazy or going like too far to the north on these things. But I'm like, well, if we're going to make a couple of different types of rock beer, right? Why, why cannot, why can we not experiment with this other realm? And so, even though we do have a very traditional focus, uh, we, we love playing around with stuff. I mean, why not? I mean, beer is fun. And it's great to be innovative, try stuff, and it may not be your favorite beer that you've ever made, but I would say this, uh, you're like children, uh, and that you love them all, but they all have their different time and place. Uh, just because you brew a beer doesn't mean you have to drink like gallons of it, like you would like your favorite pilsner or your favorite lager. You, it may spark something new and different, or you can use an experience, and then you could tell a different story, and keeping your consumers excited is really an important thing. But I would, I would go back to talking to other folks and say, You know, make, make beers you're proud of in general. Like if, if, if you're gonna do something stunty, like make it something that you want to drink or that you would proud to put your name on it, and, and then beer is fun, so it should be fun.

Speaker 2 [47:56] Perfect advice, Josh. Thank you. Sam, I know you guys have really never shied away from, from experimenting, but I feel like you've always really stayed true to your own ethos here. So what advice would you have to offer newer brewers who are feeling the pressure?

Speaker 3 [48:08] Yeah, I'd, I'd say, you know, one man's, one man's stunt beer is another man's flagship, you know, when we, when we opened, we, our mission in the business plan was to be the first, uh, commercial brewing in America, committed to brewing the majority of beers outside the Rhine Heitsgebo, incorporating, incorporating culinary ingredients into our, our recipes. It was true and we opened with a little twelve-gallon system in the corner of our restaurant. That's true. Today we're, you know, I have 12, 1200 barrel, uh, you know, uh, tanks in, in this building filled with the limes and pumpkins and sea salt and monk fruit. So we're really, really proud that we haven't had a waiver from our original mission as we, as we've, uh, grown this company. But I do think when, when we're experimenting our little systems and we, we're totally agnostic on the cost of Ingredients that our brewers buy or aspirations of making it a national brand and we don't want to, you know, put a hand behind our back on that creative process. But as we walk potential, you know, experiments into national innovation considerations, we do try to find lanes where we can, uh, you know, impress consumers, distributors, and retailers with the authenticity of our cap. Abilities of playing well in that lane in a sustained way whether it's the sour category or you know uh the active lifestyle space we did nama space yoga beer 12 years ago sequent hale, uh, you know, 4 or 5 years ago now that on that, you know, uh, sour America slightly mighty and now with Lemon Quest, uh, you know, in the non-out space and working with the same. Scientists from the Gatorade Research Institute that we work with on sequence. You know, our goal is to find these, these white spaces, but don't think of them as just, oh, the white space is this one SKU, this one liquid. It's a space that we can have a conversation with the consumer about and just ideate and create that space and other liquids might come and be complementary in that space and that helps, I think helps us, you know, or. Earn an opportunity to be, you know, identified as, as, as part of that space or pioneers, uh, in that space, and that's always been my dream. It's never been about getting to a certain scale. It's been, been about trying to make these, these, take these risks and pioneer versus sort of a fast follower model and sometimes you fall on your ass like I'm enjoying the hell out of this Pilsner. We we released a piercing Pilsner, Pilsner with, with pears in the, in the winter, which is like the time of year no one fucking drinks Pilsner's 12 years ago. I don't think it was about, I don't think it was ahead of its time. I think it just was the wrong thing, but we love taking those risks. Sometimes they pay off and sometimes they don't, but that's always been, been part of our, you know, creative journey.

Justin Kendall [50:50] We've got another audience question. Beyond the liquid, which of the innovations accelerated by COVID-19 are you most excited about continuing when consumer behaviors in parent, hopefully, shift towards a more normalized pattern. And, and so I, I read this as, you know, e-commerce trends or curbside or delivery. or, or some of, some type of innovation that your businesses have taken on during the pandemic, and, and I'd ask you on top of that, what are maybe one of the two things you've learned from that, that you'd share with other entrepreneurs that they could apply to their businesses. And I'll start with Esther, because I know you guys have made so many different shifts.

Speaker 4 [51:34] Yeah, we've we've had to tackle a lot of operational and logistical challenges to operate safely and with hospitality in mind. So one of the surprising features for us that we did out of necessity at first and now has become. Really like a pretty well-loved feature and it's so counter to our social hospitality is we have QR codes at our tables now and so we went to a totally contactless experience um for our um I mean not only off-site for curbside pickup. And delivered, but on premise at all of our locations we worked with our point of sale vendor. We use Toast, who is local in Boston and so um we were one of the first of their accounts in the country to initiate. This QR code menu system. So it's a little, right now it's literally on just like little placards at the table. So we have this little QR code you scan it with your phone at the table and it pulls out our menu. And so you can, right now you order. Your beer, you know, your draft beer, you order your food, but you can also order beer to go at the table. And so that has been one thing. I joke. JC is the type of guy like he will not call and make a reservation. He's like, I don't want to talk to a human when I like need a quick interaction. I just want to like Do this on my phone, be done, not have to deal with like that extra layer. And so when we're talking about like not interacting with a human, that's the opposite of hospitality, but it really has helped immensely to expedite our transactional processes. So one of the things that we'll probably keep is the QR code on our menu. So even when we go back to full service hospitality table service. And we do have um one of our servers come around and like engage with you and talk about what you want. You can order your beer to go from the menu and have that package cold, ready to go on your way out. So you don't have to have a second transaction, um, you know, or just even like you can do it on your own time. Like, hey, I really like this beer. Is this available to go? Yeah, I'll add that to my cart. So, um, that's been one element. From a technological standpoint that we implemented again out of necessity, but we think we'll keep around because it's just been so helpful and streamlined.

Justin Kendall [54:08] Josh, what's one, COVID accelerated innovation that'll be sticking around at frame, and also, uh, if you have an online ordering system, which one

Speaker 5 [54:18] do you use? Well, can I answer that from a wholesale, wholesale and retail side? Absolutely. So we also use toast, uh, and same as Esther and had great luck, uh, with the QR code, uh, and also similar is creating a to go business is new to, uh, our business. Uh, we live in the middle of the Cascades in the Kobe River Gorge, and we are a destination. We, our place is very full on the weekends year round. And one thing we're excited to take on from our to go business we've created is that we sometimes run. 1.5, 2 hour, 3 hour waits, and I, to be able to have such a dialed in to go ordering system. Somebody comes up, they don't want to wait. We're right across the street from the park. We actually have an open container wall in Hood River. And so now people can order food and beer online within 15 minutes and go over to the park and enjoy a really nice meal, uh, in a different experience than would in our tasting room. So we'll, we'll keep that for sure. And then we've also seen the potential of e-commerce. Uh, we work closely with Whole Foods as one of our partners, um, in the, in the wholesale side of the business, and then their connection to Amazon and shipping, uh, that has been like that's really upticked for us personally, and I think that's only going to grow. And we also have our, uh, freeers union. Beer Club, uh, that is limited to shipping by our state of Oregon. I'm hoping that some of the things that we've seen here can break down some of these laws so that we're able to ship to further places, uh, to give those people experience and, uh, I look forward to seeing what type of opportunity that brings in the future and we'll be ready for it.

Justin Kendall [56:06] Sam, what's one thing that's come out of the pandemic innovation-wise, that's gonna be sticking around at Dogfish Head that you're excited about?

Speaker 3 [56:15] Yeah, so, uh, well, innovation-wise, I, I'd say it's uh more like, uh, you know, the history of, of like our, our planet, which would be, you know, recognizing that like you're way less likely to contract COVID being outside. And you saw like, you know, Esther talked about quickly they pivoted to outdoor spaces and Josh is talking about the awesome open container laws that let people take their, their, what they like. To drink outside. You know, I'd say that's something that we're really excited about, you know, we have painted over our mantle at our harborfront hotel, the, the, the slogan, Welcome to Lewis, Mother Nature, let's do this. And the fact that this pandemic is, is getting people outside to socialize and to drink and kind of be in the natural bounty of, of where our, our ingredients and the beautiful stuff we make, uh, grow. Those, uh, and you look at our three successful brands, one facing the harbor in Boston, one beauty of, of, of, of Hood River, and one in coastal Delaware. I think that's really exciting, you know. I, I don't think, imagine having navigated this pandemic like 40 years ago without the internet, you know, trying to do this conference or, or whatever. And so, so right now, people are lucky sort of that they have the internet and can be on their phones and communicate globally, but we're Also recognizing that I think that our souls ache to get, get, get back out in nature. And I think people are figuring out ways to do that right now and finding that to be more, uh, uh, precious and kind of lifting our, our, our spirits. So I hope that, that doesn't go away. I know at Dogfish, we're really gonna lean into that idea of, of really celebrating, getting people out into, into nature, uh, moving forward. I don't think that's uh gonna go away.

Speaker 2 [57:59] Esther, Trillium is known for collaborating with other breweries, which usually happens in the summer. So speaking of enjoying nature and being outside, but travel restrictions and quarantines made that really difficult to do. So how did you guys pivot?

Speaker 4 [58:13] Yeah, that really sucked. Um, that suck really early on, I think it was um. I was the one at home alone with my kids and like kind of trapped in here and so there was a point where I got desperate for social engagement and so I for me these like Saturday night brewer zooms. I was like, you guys, I'm so lonely like please somebody hang out with me so I'm not just looking at my all the time. So, um, we ended up getting, it was like at one point I think there were about 122 of our friend brewers around the world, um, on Zooms on a Saturday night. We were talking to our friend Josh from Garage Project in New Zealand and he was having his April, um, his Easter brunch while we were all drinking champagne or like whatever on Saturday night. Um, and so it was so important to us to keep that connection, not just for our, you know, not just for our business and our customers, but like for ourselves. We need that connection together. So collaboration has become, has become such a source of inspiration for us. So to do it safely, we, you know, collectively as a group came up with a few ideas that would keep us talking to each other, sharing ideas, sharing recipes, and then make it fun for our customers. So we did a couple of things. We did a Freaky Friday series where we traded recipes with a friend and then on a Friday, we'd released Their version, uh, you know, uh, we did with Monkish, we did, uh, I think it was Foggy's Window, and so we did that year and then they did Dele Door Havicinity, so we just traded recipes and, um, put out our version of it and obviously like you can't perfectly recreate anything, so it was fun for our customers to kind of compare and see what we would do with it. So we did Freaky Fridays and then we did the hit refresh series where we brought back older collaborations that Where we even pulled our customers and our own staff to see what did you love, what would you like to see again. So, uh, with Bellwoods in Toronto, we just recently released, we did uh Street Shark with them, so we did Super Street Shark. So we kind of played around and tweaked those recipes so we could still innovate, stay in touch, but put out something kind of familiar and fun. So, um, those were a couple of the things that we did just to like stay connected and keep it exciting and continue to put out new beers.

Speaker 2 [1:00:39] Awesome, you guys get really creative with that. OK, we are just about out of time, so we're gonna lightning round one last question. Um, so, we'll hit all of you guys really quick, and then we gotta get to the second panel. But 2020 can't be all tricks. So what is one treat that you've seen this year that's giving you hope for 2021? Josh, let's start with you.

Speaker 5 [1:00:59] Oh, we are super excited about the opportunity that we've created and opening up, uh, a bunch of new channels for packaged beer and that I was gonna be carrying the company quite a bit into the future, and then we're Really, really excited to bring back more draft. I think people want draft and want to be part of the future, and we, we're gonna give it to them. So I'm very optimistic. Uh, it may not be what it was right away, but we will bring it back, and I, I'm very excited about that.

Speaker 2 [1:01:31] Sweet, what's your favorite candy?

Speaker 5 [1:01:34] Uh, it'd be some sort of chocolate form. I don't have that big one sweet tooth.

Speaker 2 [1:01:39] Interesting. I'm impressed. I don't have that problem. Esther, what about you guys? What is your, your one treat from 2020 that you're looking forward to continuing into 2021?

Speaker 4 [1:01:49] Like I said, this year really sucks, but there's one bright spot. It's like just very simply, it's our team. We actually part of our success has come from our ability to pivot, react quickly and to adapt. And this year we had a super solid team that was just like things were changing day by day, and they just believed in us and went with it. And so. I just can't wait for us to all have a better year together next year. So we put a lot of trust in each other and we are looking forward to a better year next year.

Speaker 2 [1:02:19] Awesome. What is your favorite candy?

Speaker 4 [1:02:22] Anything with chocolate and peanut butter, so like dark chocolate Reese's. Yeah,

Speaker 2 [1:02:28] with you on that, girl. Sam, friend, last word. What has been your treat from 2020 that is gonna give you a little bit of hope in 2021? And what's your favorite candy?

Speaker 3 [1:02:38] Yeah, Jess, I'd say it's part of it's come through this series of events that our, our two companies have been able to do together, which is just how inspiring it's been to watch entrepreneurial brewers of all scales like react to this moment, pivot, and be their entrepreneurial bad selves, you know, David's against Goliath right now instead of it being a massive. National Brewery, the, the Goliath is this fucking pandemic and watching how people have, you know, navigated that and done really, really creative, inspiring, uh, things. I was coming into this today and I, I was reading this, uh, book about from this theologian dude William Pollard, whose quote was, Learning and innovation go hand in hand. The arrogance of. Success is to think that what you did yesterday will be successful for tomorrow, and I think the stories we're hearing today is, is all of us with great humility realizing we had to pivot and it's super inspiring listening to all these stories of, of successful, uh, pivots that we're, we're, we're telling in this series. So proud to be part of this with you guys.

Justin Kendall [1:03:39] We're proud to have you. We're proud to have you, and you're always full of surprises here at the end. So, thanks to Sam, Esther, and Josh.