Brew Talks Virtual: Another Round: The Future of America’s Craft Beer Bars

Speaker 1 [00:20] Hey everyone, thanks for sticking around. Our second conversation is about the future of the American craft beer bar, and how its role has evolved in the wake of the closing of iconic craft beer bar, the Falling Rock Tap House in Denver. We'll also dive into the consumer behaviors our guests have seen since the reopening of the on-premise channel. Sticking around for the conversation is my co-host, Jess Infante. Thanks for sticking there, Jess.

Speaker 2 [00:47] Of course, no problem. Did I have a choice?

Speaker 1 [00:51] No, you did not, and neither did Sam Calagione, who is also here. Thanks for sticking around, Sam.

Speaker 3 [00:57] Justin and Jess, we love doing this. Dogfish is super proud to be the longtime sponsor of these shindigs, and uh couldn't be more excited for the panel we're about to have with a bunch of industry leaders. That's right.

Speaker 1 [01:10] Dogfish is our presenting sponsor. Our other sponsors are the Reyes Beer Division, as well as John I. Haass. That's Brew One by John I. Haas. And joining us on this panel, the 2nd All-Star panel, is Michael Roper, owner of the Hop Leaf Bar in Chicago. He's coming to us live from Italy. Thanks for being here, Michael.

Speaker 4 [01:31] You're welcome. I wouldn't miss it for the world.

Speaker 1 [01:35] We are so appreciative for your time today. We're also appreciative that Melissa Meyers, the owner of the Good Hop in Oakland, is here. Thanks for being here, Melissa.

Speaker 5 [01:44] Of course, thanks for inviting me. I'm super stoked to have this chat.

Speaker 1 [01:48] Last but not least, we have Selena Teo, the owner of the Belfry Lounge in Kansas City, Missouri, a place that I am very, very familiar with. Thank you for being here, Selena. We're seven months into 2021 and past two big summer beer drinking occasions. Michael, how has the year gone so far for the Hop Leaf?

Speaker 4 [02:08] Well, you know, we were closed for 7 of the previous, uh, you know, 12 months until April 1st. And we reopened April 1st with 50% capacity allowed and other, you know, social distancing. And, uh, it just exploded. It, it did so, even with those kind of restrictions, we were doing the same numbers we were doing in 2019 with 43 less employees. And, uh, or sorry, to 23 less employees. And, um, uh, you know, it's been very gratifying. Um, and then, um, on June 11th, all of the restrictions expired. And we brought the bar stools back in, brought the extra tables back in and opened just like we've been open for the last 30 years. And we've been packed ever since. I mean, it's been Um, it's like a grand opening. Everybody's got this pent-up demand to go out to their local pub. And we're definitely, um, We're very, very busy.

Speaker 1 [03:20] Selena, how has the return of the on-premise gone so far at the Belfry?

Speaker 6 [03:25] Actually, uh, business has been going well. Uh, we never closed except for that 2.5 months that we were forced to, uh, for only to go, and slowly but surely, everything has been coming back and, um, we've been actually seeing great numbers. A lot of people eating, a lot of people drinking. Everybody's happy. I

Speaker 1 [03:46] think we're still having some connection issues. Melissa, how has it gone so far in Oakland at the Good Hop?

Speaker 5 [03:53] Um, it's, it's pretty much as, as Michael talked about, um, you know, we, we kind of fought tooth and nail for 17 months to, to stay alive in any way we possibly could, uh, which meant we became an online beer store and handed beer out our side door like a speakeasy. Um, but now, you know, same thing. So, on June 15th, they, they, um, They let all the restrictions go, and we put all our bar stools back and put all our tables back, and it was literally like nothing's ever happened. Um, except that we're seeing the same kind of things that Michael's seen in Chicago is that, um, you know, people are really excited to go sit at a bar and we've had people come walk through our door and start dancing. Um, we had a woman walk through our door and just start sobbing. We're like, OK, come on, sit at the bar, let's get a beer in you. Um, so it's been, it's been great. I mean, it's been, yeah, it's been like a grand opening, you know, it's, it's a homecoming and, and all the community that we managed to keep a hold of during not being able to see their faces. Um, they're all starting to come back and see each other. Um, we've got people who actually have been gone for years and years come back and they're like, we heard you made it through, so we came back, you know, so it's been, it's been awesome.

Speaker 2 [04:59] Anybody who happy cries at walking into their favorite bar would definitely sounds like somebody I should be friends with, right? So, uh, Melissa, how much of your in-bar business has returned and how does that breakdown compared to any kind of takeout business you guys were doing? I know you don't really do much food, but were you doing any beer and, uh, other drinks to go?

Speaker 5 [05:19] Um, I mean, we, so we have a, we're, we're kind of a mixed bar, so we're, we have 16 draft taps, but we have 450, um, cans and bottles, and those have always been to go or to consume on site. So, um, it made it easy for us to slide into the, to go site pretty, pretty hardcore. Um, and then when we reopened, we kind of pushed everyone back to draft to kind of be like, yo, it's draft, draft is back, like, have a pint, don't open a can, take that home with you. Um, and so that's been huge, but people are definitely ready to, to, to go back to normal. They wanna be able to grab the cans and drink them at the bar, um. You know, and like you said, we don't have food, so, uh, we're actually starting to work on that program cause why just slide back into normal, but let's change it all over again and try something different. So, um, yeah, I mean, we're just seeing people are just, and the to go section is still happening. We still have people ordering online, you know, not everybody wants to be in a bar yet. They're not totally sure. So, um, we're trying to kind of maintain that balance of Keeping the convenience for people who still would like to take it home and not be in a bar, and then also welcome everyone who wants to come and sit.

Speaker 2 [06:24] Selena, how would you say the, the in-bar business compares to whatever takeout you still have going on at the Belfry?

Speaker 6 [06:32] Uh, the NBA business has actually been doing great. Um, the to go part has fizzled. There's still quite a few people and neighbors that, uh, still just get their food to go and have the entire year and a half. Um, but the NBA business has really, really picked up. I'm, I'm Really optimistic and positive about the direction it's going and, and certainly happy.

Speaker 2 [06:55] That's great to hear, Michael. Given your location and all the Italian I took in high school, I really wanna call you Michele right now, but I know the Hop Leaf shut down for quite a while, so you weren't really open when takeout was the only option. What are you noticing with your customers right now? Do most people want to come in and stick around, or are you doing some to go sales?

Speaker 4 [07:14] We, we never really bought into the, to go at all. Um, we didn't do it before the pandemic. Um, we always felt that Hop Leaf is kind of an experiential place that you can't put in a box. Um, we do sell a lot of food, um, but our food is very, you know, it's, it's kinda chef-driven. It, it involves a lot of prep and a really big staff. And We just decided that, you know, like, it was actually in our economic favor to just completely shut down. So, we didn't do, the only, the only to go that we did is right after the march closing, uh, you know, I found myself having a lot of bottled beer on hand and a lot of kegs. I had 88 full kegs of beer and 66 tapped kegs. So, uh, I did a big growler sale, which we never did growlers before. We weren't even allowed to do it before. We sold all that beer. Uh, we sold all of our bottled beer. We sold about 6000 bottles of beer. Um, but when it was gone, that was it. Um, you know, we just shut down and stayed shut down, uh, until we were allowed to reopen partially last summer a little bit, and then we shut down November 1st until April 1st.

Speaker 2 [08:32] So Sam, when you hear the way that everybody's describing how their businesses have, have grown and survived and changed, what, what does, what goes through your head at hearing all of these stories?

Speaker 3 [08:43] Elation, you know, I, I did it, uh, and it's like, as we know, they'll, they'll, not everything will return to normal and not everything should. The new normal will create some new exciting opportunities. I was, I was a high, I was on a hybrid teams last night while Todd Big, who runs Boston Beers, uh, category management, had his whole team. At City Tavern, literally the tavern in Philadelphia where our forefathers uh wrote, uh, the Declaration of Independence. Uh, and so it was a, a, a new world where the people were alive in this third space, which is what beers, beer bars are. Uh, but there was a hybrid sort of techie component to it, much like as we will probably talk about QR codes later and handheld, uh, POS later, there'll be a new world order. But what will go back to normal, thankfully, is This beloved idea of the third space, and I think the third space, i.e., the, the true tavern experience, uh, it has been such a boon for the craft beer renaissance since it started, because it's the place where you can go and take a risk on a beverage you've never tried before, and it's not as big of a financial risk as walking into a store and buying a 12-pack, or buying a case. And moreover, unlike walking into a store and buying A case or going to some e-commerce site, you get the passion, and you get the education, and you get the knowledge of people like Melissa and Michael and Selena to say, hey, we intentionally curated these things to be in our space. You chose to come here because of our reputation. Let us tell you about what's new and exciting, and take a small risk on it by 12 ounces or 16 ounces at a time. So I'm, couldn't be more excited for, for the moment we're, we're, we're talking about right now.

Speaker 1 [10:28] Michael, from what you've seen so far, how different is the consumer that is coming back into your bar?

Speaker 4 [10:35] Um, you know, we are, uh, definitely seeing, um, Uh, all of our longtime regulars are coming in. Um, we don't have a, you know, during the summer, we usually see a lot of tourists and travelers and people coming to Chicago for trade shows and conventions. That's still not happening. So, our customer base now has become much more local. And, um, our customers tend to be a little more mature, a little older than a lot of the other craft beer bars. Um, I mean, the big change is when they're coming. Um, you know, we tried for almost 30 years to figure out some way to get people to come in during the day. And we're in a neighborhood, we're not downtown. And it just was a complete failure. Since we reopened April 1st, almost 40% of our business is before 6 o'clock. We're really busy during the day, and that is fantastic. On the other end, the late-night drinkers are kind of vanishing. Um, but for quality of life for my staff, that is fantastic. You know, like now, we could close at midnight, and the employees can go home and have some kind of sleep instead of getting home at 2:30 or 3 o'clock in the morning. And if we can do that business during the day, um, it's all, it's, everything's good about it. Um, but I'm really seeing, you know, we've, I've never seen a time when our customer base was so locavore, you know, it's really, uh, we, we live in a very dense neighborhood. Um, we're seeing a lot of regulars 2 or 3 times a week again. Um, we are seeing new customers who live in our neighborhood and somehow never, never came in before. Um, people are bringing their families and their friends, you know, it's like, uh, everybody's bringing their parents in to, uh, to their favorite bar. And I think that's like, I, I love that. I love when somebody says, uh, uh, you know, comes up to the bar and says, I want you to meet my dad, you know, like, that's fantastic.

Speaker 1 [12:46] That is awesome. Melissa, what's the, how are the consumers sort of changed that are coming back to the good hop? And are you also seeing that change in the hours that they're coming in?

Speaker 5 [12:56] Yeah, for sure. I mean, basically, everything Michael said is the same out in Oakland, you know, we, we're now open an hour earlier than we ever were before COVID. Um, we close an hour earlier now. I mean, we're, we would like to get up to being open later, but to be honest, part of it is finding employees. Um, we're still not open 7 days a week yet because I don't, I don't have enough staff. Um, but yeah, we're seeing people come during the day, you know, a lot of people during COVID all got to work from home and we would see people all the time, you know, 23 o'clock in the afternoon being like, yeah, I just need to go for a walk. I thought I'd come get a beer. Um, and so, same thing, we're, we're seeing our business is, you know, ramped up and heavy, but it's slowing down, you know, into the night. So when we would normally be open till 11. Um, 9 o'clock is where we're starting to see it teeter off and it's, it's great for the employees, you know, they get to go out and have a drink on their own or go home and get some sleep and I don't know if the late-night, you know, deep drinking sessions are gonna come back or not. That, that maybe that's something we're gonna lose in the new normal, but, um, I mean, I'd bring it on if it came, so.

Speaker 1 [14:04] Sam, uh, what is Dogfish Head doing to reach some of those consumers as they come back into the bars and restaurants?

Speaker 3 [14:14] Well, you know, echoing Melissa's comments, our biggest struggle is, uh, appears to be there for all the, the times that customers want to be there. So this week, we're literally for the first time. Post, uh, COVID you know, post-COVID opening for lunch, which is we're in the absolute heart in coastal Delaware of our busy season, and essentially lost half of the summer, uh, because of our inability to staff, even though customers are there at the door and want us to be open. So a godsend for us is that to go business. Like we're pretty lucky that Pre-COVID, we decided to put a small-scale canning line inside our brewery that just has a little 5-barrel system in downtown Rehoboth, about 15 miles from our production brewery, uh, so that we could do small-scale canning so that people could take beer to go. So even though we don't have enough staff to be open, uh, for service on the food, Side are what we call our emporium, P O U R, our emporium has been able to keep all its hours, and we're just canning off a lot more of our beer, so that we can have full hours to get that beer to people. Uh, similarly, another big learning is, uh, in Jim Tulio, our, our company's on-prem leader, echoed this, uh, you know, coast to coast, cause, you know, the QR code was like, it's kind of like Crocs. It was fucking cool 10 years ago, and then Crocs went out of fashion, and suddenly people are wearing Crocs again. QR codes, QR codes are kind of following the trend curve of, of Crocs, and I don't think they're going away, uh, cause it's so convenient, you're hanging with your buddies, you don't necessarily wanna have that big conversation. Sometimes, if you want to, you belly up to the bar, that bartender at the The establishments of the folks on this, on this, uh, Zoom, they'll talk passion beer all day to you, but a lot of people just wanna go out, have the experience, they know what they want. That QR code gives them that opportunity. Similarly, I'm here in Dogfish Head, Maine, rural, rural Maine, and, and even when you, you take a little boat to a lobster shack, they're bringing up a little handheld device to, to do the, uh, to do the, the Payment is if you're in uh Tuscany with Michael, the way they've been doing in Europe for 30 years, that's suddenly here in America, I don't think that's gonna go away cause customers love that convenience. Uh, and it really does probably help on the service side to save co-workers from running back and forth to a, to a POS uh station. So those are some of the trends we're seeing and actually investing in, in our retail locations.

Speaker 2 [16:43] So, in early CGA reports, almost nobody was coming back to the on-premise just to drink, uh, and that's starting to change. So, Selena, are your customers coming back more for food or are they seeking bar occasions? What, what do you really get a sense is happening?

Speaker 6 [16:57] In my place, uh, I have a full-service restaurant. So, uh, I think part of it is a lot of people are coming in for food. Our average check is a lot higher than it was, uh, prior to the pandemic. I think that's a probably two things, uh, training in-house to make sure that everybody is ordering food and wants to do full three courses, um, as opposed to, it's just changing everybody's way of thinking to make sure that we're trying to get every dollar we can. Um, out of somebody that's walking through the door because the numbers are lower. But again, the average check is so much higher than it was before, um, because of those reasons. People will have three course dinner, um, with me. As opposed to before, maybe they would have 2 cocktails and roll or 2 beers and just roll.

Speaker 2 [17:44] Fascinating. Michael, is the Hop Leaf seeing something similar?

Speaker 4 [17:48] We're selling more food than we did before. Um, I mean, we've, we've always sold a lot of food. Um, but I think a lot of it is that, you know, for a year, people were cooking all their meals at home, and they got really sick of it. And if they weren't eating at home, home-cooked meals, they were eating out of a box. And I think people are thrilled to be in a place and have a plate put in front of them, and a fork that isn't plastic, and a real napkin, and, you know, and a, and a really great choice of beers to match with that, or wine or cocktails. So, I think that uh there was an extreme pent-up demand for eating out. So, right now, almost every single person that's coming in the door is eating. And because we're short-staffed, we've actually trimmed our food menu down a little bit to sort of the greatest hits of hop leaf food. And, um, customers are not, you know, they're not upset about it. They'd like to see some of those other things back, but they kinda understand we're a little short-staffed, but they are eating a lot. So, right now, we're fifty-fifty food and beverage, which we were not before.

Speaker 2 [19:03] Wow, I totally hear you on people being sick of cooking. Cooking is probably my favorite thing to do, and this time last year I never wanted to touch a pan again. So, definitely relatable. Bit of a bummer question for you guys, but it's definitely something that we've been talking about nationwide is how many restaurants and bars have closed permanently. So, Selena, how many businesses around your spot have, have closed shop, do you think forever, and how many have reopened? What do you think that ratio is?

Speaker 1 [19:29] Melissa, uh,

Speaker 6 [19:31] let's hit you.

Speaker 5 [19:34] Sure. Um, you know, we definitely saw, Oakland's pretty heavy and, and rich in the beer scenes, and we definitely lost a few, um, pretty heavy hitter beer bars. Um, Surprisingly, and I, I think that that You know, it's, it's, it's two different things. It's super sad and you're sad to see him go and you feel like, oh my God, I made it, you know, like, OK, we're still here though. Um, I would say that, you know, we lost, we probably lost about 20% um of the, of the heavy hitter beer bars, um, in Oakland. And um we haven't seen any new ones open, which I, I, I'm kind of surprised. We used to talk about during this, this COVID time, you know, when some of us are out there fighting to stay alive, but there's a bunch of people going, man, I'm gonna open a new business, you know, like, here's my time to plan it out. Um, and we haven't seen them come. Come out yet, but, um, you know, there's always rumors about new, new places opening up and coming soon, so we'll see if they fill out the market, um, and fill in those spaces.

Speaker 2 [20:32] So is that just you're not seeing new beer bars? Are you seeing new restaurants in general?

Speaker 5 [20:37] Um, in, in Oakland, not a ton, not as much as I think we all kind of collectively thought we would see. Um, it, it seems to be that what's opening is, is at the same rate as it was before, um, before COVID.

Speaker 2 [20:49] That's, I mean, better than less though. Michael, what are you seeing in Chicago?

Speaker 4 [20:54] Um, uh, you know, uh, I think that fine dining was, uh, hurt a lot more than places like us. Uh, a lot of fine dining places, uh, are gone forever. Um, not a few beer bars went away, uh, uh, 2 or 3, you know, brewery taprooms closed. But I was actually impressed at how many survived. Uh, but, uh, on the restaurant front, it's a lot different and a lot worse. Um, we did, uh, one thing it's, it's an opportunity is that the places that did close, you know, they were fully built out spaces. And most of the owners didn't own their buildings. So, the landlords are saying, here, to a new operator, here's a place, it's built out. The kitchen is completely equipped. We've got barstools, we've got chairs, we've got tables, we've got, you know, silverware. Everything is here. So, it is an incredible opportunity for new entrepreneurs to jump in a space that is fully built out, and that is definitely happening. Um, and so there are some, there's actually a lot of new places opening. But I will say, the craft beer bar, like us, is not Seeing that kind of um interest. Um, there's a lot more interest in opening restaurants. There's a lot more interest in cocktail bars, wine bars. Uh, but I think that, uh, the concept of the craft beer bar is not as attractive to new investors as it used to be, which is OK with me because I'm still here. And, you know, that, that, I, I'll take all that business.

Speaker 2 [22:37] Definitely always great to have fewer competition. Uh, Melissa, you mentioned earlier that you guys were thinking about adding a, you are working on adding a kitchen, which is a pretty fundamental shift for you. So, how else, in what other ways has the pandemic affected the way that you view your business and how has it changed in the past year?

Speaker 5 [22:55] You know, during COVID when we're all just trying to survive, like, I mean, I, I, you know, friends of mine who owned restaurants were now selling heads of lettuce and tomatoes, and here's, you know, a loaf of bread and a pound of flour, you know, it's like, it became a grocery store all of a sudden. Um, and we did a couple of those things. We actually, we're now a fish CSA pickup, a seafood, um, pickup spot, seems super weird, but, um, it's gotten a lot, it's gotten a lot of people introduced to us who come to literally pick up their seafood each week and then they're like, wait. I can get beer here, you know, and so, um, things like that, I honestly don't think they're gonna go away. Like, it's, it's not a, it's not hard for us to keep that going. Um, and yeah, you know, it's made us look at, at food, right? Because people do wanna go out and eat and not eat in a box and not eat with a plastic fork. And so, um, for us, because we are, we're actually a pretty small location and the kitchen isn't, it's not an option to put a kitchen in, but it is an option now that all these restaurants and food purveyors have figured out how to Make food to go, you know, so they're making stuff where we can pop it into a toaster oven and that we can put into our space, um, and actually get some quality food that, that, you know, translates well to a place that doesn't have a kitchen like me. So we're looking forward to getting the highlight and, you know, take advantage of that, that part that, that grew out of COVID is, is the kind of mobile food

Speaker 2 [24:14] option. That's exciting. Selena, how are you viewing your business now versus how you viewed it before the pandemic, and what other fundamental changes do you see happening in the way that you're operating?

Speaker 6 [24:25] The business has just changed so much, and I kind of embrace change. It's kind of the thing about entrepreneurship that I love so much is the learning curve is so big and so great. Um, and we're gonna continue to change, and I'm gonna continue to adapt to it. The biggest thing I think is just, uh, like I was talking about earlier is, is training and really just trying to, you know, connect with everybody, um. Engage and really kind of build relationships, you know, I think that's the biggest thing that people are craving right now since being cooped up or by themselves or with minimal access to people and restaurants and food and, you know, Events in their life, I think they're really kind of craving that engagement with people. And so all these small businesses and taprooms and breweries and um being able to chat, beer, um, and still help educate about craft beer and, and anything really, um, is really what is, I think is gonna make people's experiences and make them come back more and more and more.

Speaker 1 [25:29] Shift shifting gears a little bit, we wanna hit on the impact and evolution of the craft beer bar. Sam, what have you felt beer bar's impact has been and continues to be on the growth of the craft brewing industry?

Speaker 3 [25:43] Well, I, I mentioned earlier that, you know, the bar proposition where you're buying one drink at a time is like the least financially risky for someone trying a new product, and the uh exponentially awesome reality that if you're going to a place that calls themselves a beer bar, their staff better not be fronting on that and better. know their shit, and that usually happens, and to some extent, for, for better or worse, in a lot of ways, perhaps the, the pandemic was a bit of an economic Darwinism in that those that were really, really had that passion, that tenacity, uh, were the ones that, that made it through. And, and, uh, so the customers that go there know they're gonna get ensconced in, in, in I also say the craft brew, craft uh bars are great bellwethers for the trends to come, right? If, if you got a reputation as a great beer destination, you can't just rest on your laurels and look backwards at IRI trends and say, OK, what was selling well in the supermarket down the street from me, because you know that a lot of the bars and restaurants in your neighborhood, that might not be craft beer bars, but You know, every, every good restaurant now has some craft beer in it, but they're not likely on the cutting edge of what's coming in the beer world. They're usually making safe bets of what's already been established and our proven styles off-prem. So, the, uh, the, the beer bars are gonna be the great sort of uh risk takers on helping to define what's gonna be uh the next IPA, uh, that's out there. And I think customers know that when they're making The decisions of where they're gonna go, uh, next. And I also love that more and more publicans are really, uh, the, the great ones, I think are really judicious. Uh, I think of those on with us today, and, uh, uh, you know, like, uh, Winking Lizard and others, they're, they're, they're like, OK, I, I know that I wanna use some amount of my chess pieces, i.e. my, my cold, my cold shelf space or my taps to take risks and And do some crazy moves, and then I want some predictable paws that I know will deliver uh the expectation. They might not freak someone out as something super new they've never tried it, but being really deliberate on having some old favorites, whether they're brands or flagships from those brands, but then using some amount of their real estate to take, take big risks, I see that being more, more thoughtful, uh, than ever as well.

Speaker 2 [28:18] So, Sam, you really summed up the, the role that, that craft beer bars have been playing, uh, which is great. I'm gonna throw a question to all of our publicans. Thank you for that excellent word. Um, so, craft beer bars have played an integral role in growing the segment, introducing consumers to different craft breweries and styles, and over the years, those relationships have evolved a bit as virtually every brewer opened a taproom. So, what do you see as your role now within the craft ecosystem and what role do you hope your establishment is filling for beer drinkers? I'm gonna start with you, Michael.

Speaker 4 [28:48] So, you know, about 2015, um, there was an explosion of uh brewery taprooms in Chicago. Uh, in the city limits, there's 1986. Uh, in the greater Chicago metropolitan area, there's over 250 breweries with taprooms. And naturally, that Um, affected us. I mean, we, we were selling less beer. Um, and, um, but we, we thought a lot about it and, um, The pandemic then threw some other uh wrenches in the system. But what we're finding is that our role now is to carry the beers that the taprooms don't carry. Um, you know, like the brewery taprooms, maybe they might have a guest brewery, but it's always gonna be a local brewery. So, we've kind of, um, you know, mixed up our, uh, 62 draft lines between Uh, beers that are like what I call the legacy craft beer, uh, makers, you know, the, the Sierra Nevada's, the New Belgium, the, uh, uh, the Bells, uh, the Dogfish Head, um, Allagash, things like that. Um, because those, those are not going to be found at taprooms even as guest beers. Um, and then we carry some regional favorites. We still carry plenty Belgian beers on tap. We carry some real interesting German beer. Um, and we've, um, long realized that, um, we needed to carry other things. So, I've always thought like Hop Leaf, I think has the best wine list of any beer bar in the United States. Um, and, um, that means that if you have a table of 6 and 4 of them are beer people, um, the, those other 2 people that don't drink beer, they, they have very low expectations when they come into a beer bar. And we blow their minds because they, they've never seen a wine list like ours. And so, we're doing a lot, we're selling a lot of wine. We're selling more cocktails. Um, we have great food. Um, a lot of taprooms don't, they either don't have food at all, or they have a food truck or something like that. In Illinois, they, uh, brewery taps rooms until very recently weren't even allowed to carry, uh, cider. They weren't allowed to carry wine. They weren't allowed to carry cocktails. So, you know, we tried to fill in that gap. And, uh, and we've been really successful. So, uh, I think that, you know, I, I, I, before we started talking on the air, I, I was telling Sam, you know, he has a new, a relatively new beer called Hazy O. we put that on tap as soon as we reopened. It's a huge hit. We introduced it to Chicago. I'm thinking that probably people are going to stores and buying it because they had it at Hop Leaf. Um, and at first, we were probably the only bar in town carrying it. And now, I think other bars are saying, oh, I think we better carry that cause I think it's blowing out of Hop leaf. Um, so, we're able to do that and, you know, evangelize for a new beer that comes from Dowfish Head or Sierra Nevada or Bell's. Um, and, um, that's, that's our role. And, and I think it's more our role now than, than ever before.

Speaker 2 [32:12] Melissa, how do you think the good hop's role within the Bay Area craft ecosystem has changed over the past few years? You

Speaker 5 [32:19] know, one of the things that we really missed during COVID and, and our customers would talk about it, and, and my staff would talk about it is that one of the great things that when you come into the Good Hop is we will talk your face off about beer, you know, and people would be like, hey, what do you have about this? And we're like, let's go to the coolers, you know, and you'd sit up there and like, pick out beers and talk about this brewery, and oh, did you know this brewery makes this, and You know, we didn't get to do that during COVID because everything's online and people just look at a picture and buy off a description. And so, I think what we're starting to see now is people really wanna get that back. They want that interaction back. Um, and it's allowing us to, the other shift that we're starting to see is people aren't, aren't always sticking to the same style. So, I'm bringing in, you know, Box and English Milds, whereas before COVID, I couldn't sell those at all. People didn't wanna take the risk. They didn't wanna try that new beer. They're just I just drink an IPA or I just drink an Amber and that's what I'm sticking to. And so, I think that, like, as Sam said, you know, that, the, the craft beer bars are kind of the The beacon or the, you know, they'll, they'll tell you what's going on, and I think it's super interesting to see now that we get to play with more styles and um And see people taking those risks, you know, during COVID, people, people just stuck with what they knew because they needed something secure and safe. And so now people are like, all right, I'll try that, you know, pistachio, marshmallow, almond, banana, fruited stout, you know, I'm not even kidding. You just gave

Speaker 3 [33:43] away our next release, so you just gave away our next release,

Speaker 5 [33:48] Sam, someone beat you to it. I already have it on my shelf.

Speaker 2 [33:52] Oh jeez, that sounds interesting. Uh, Selena, how do you see, uh, your role having changed as the landscape and craft evolves around you?

Speaker 6 [34:03] Um, that's kind of the same thing, you know, as Sam mentioned, is really trying to introduce people to not only the new things that are coming out. Uh, Hazy O is also just flies off the, out of the faucet for me too. Um, it's such a great beer. Um, But always keeping those safe things, you know, I sell a lot of whiskey and high-end whiskey too. So just like beer, um, pre-pandemic, people looking for all these unicorn beers out there, always wanting to try something special. I always, I, I find myself always trying to remind them. Of the beautiful, delicious Sierra Nevada pale ale or whatever that is always sitting on your shelf and always fresh, um, and reminding them that, you know, don't forget about those styles and those, those, uh, core brands that, that really got, you know, started the craft beer industry. And moved it all along. So I think that's the biggest role is to try to do exactly what Sam said is, you know, have a, I'm probably like 60, 40, you know, 60, great. You know, safe things. I even sell beers that are sold at the taproom that are 4 blocks away, and it flies. Uh, out of the belfry, so. I'm, I'm lucky that I, I wanna sell everything. I wanna support my neighbors, my neighborhood taprooms too. They're small businesses just like I am, um, and I also wanna kind of feature those new releases and, and try to talk about craft beer as much as I can and, and still educate people along the way.

Speaker 2 [35:34] We've got a question in the chat from a dear friend of Brewbound, Miss Amy Gutierrez of Bevmo. Uh, Melissa, does the good hop sell hard seltzer?

Speaker 5 [35:42] not, um. I'm, I'm holding pretty hard to that as an old school uh brewer and then I've been in the industry since '96. Um. Yeah, we, I don't, I don't sell it. I've actually don't have people come and ask about it either, which is interesting. Um, we do pay attention to what our customers like, and nobody comes in and says, where's your hard seltzer? Oddly, cause I know it flies off the shelves everywhere else, but I don't know if they know that we're just kind of old school and we really stick to beer. Um, it took, it took us a while to bring in hard cider and wine, so maybe people just kind of know that's the route we take on everything.

Speaker 2 [36:20] Michael, does the Hop Leaf have hard seltzer?

Speaker 4 [36:23] Uh, we do now. Um, you know, uh, we didn't do it at first, um, and we don't sell very much of it. Very few people ask for it. Um, we have a brewery that's only about 6 blocks away from us, uh, called LeGros Brothers. And, uh, it's an all-organic brewery. All their, uh, malt and hops are organic. And they're doing a small line of organic seltzer, hard seltzers. And I said, well, uh, we'll bring in those. We're not pushing them. They're not, it's not really readily obvious that we have them. But if somebody asked me about them, uh, I've got them. And, uh, I saw a little bit of it, but I, I don't really see it ever being a really big part of my business. Uh, my customers come, they really come for beer. If they're not coming for beer, they're coming for wine. And um the hard seltzer is almost an afterthought. Um, and, but, you know, we do, we do have the three that LeGros brothers make. Uh, do I drink them? No. I have no interest in them at all. Um, but as these things go, I think their product is, it meets my standard. I mean, I have, uh, I'm not gonna carry anything that I think is, is crap. And this stuff is not crap. It's just not something I'm that, I, it's hard for me to be passionate about it. And I like to carry food. Beer, wine, cider, spirits that I'm passionate about. So this is, you know, we also carry um like Coca-Cola and stuff. I don't, I don't drink Coca-Cola, but we carry it, you know. And, and sometimes we mix drinks with it, but um I, I feel the same way about hard cider.

Speaker 2 [38:13] Selena, I know during our prep call for this, you explained that you guys have a bit of a different, uh, philosophy on hard seltzer. So why don't you tell everybody how you guys approach that particular segment?

Speaker 6 [38:22] We actually have, um, a slew of house-made syrups, uh, that we use for cocktails. And so if somebody ever asks for a seltzer, I just make them a fresh one and kind of You know, ask if they like fruity or tart or just kind of again have a conversation and engage with them and find out what they really want and just create a hard seltzer in-house for them, and it has, they've been loving them, so I'm going to continue to go that route because I'm kind of like uh Michael that I just don't wanna carry them. Uh, or I'm gonna be resistant to it, and Melissa, that I'm just gonna be resistant to, to carrying them when I know that I can make a, I feel like a better and a fresh.

Speaker 1 [39:07] Michael, uh, how is your approach to ordering changed this year compared to others?

Speaker 4 [39:13] Well, when we, uh, so we knew we're gonna reopen April 1st, and I started working on the beer list in, uh, February because, uh, uh, a problem that I'm sure Sam can relate to is that, uh, all the distributors in Chicago, they had a lot of old beer in their warehouses. Uh, so I, I contacted, I kind of went past the distributors. I went to the brewery reps and I said, what beer from this brewery that I feel is very important for me to have on tap on April 1st? What can I get that's fresh? And, and I'm really glad that I started doing this in February because when we opened April 1st, we probably had the freshest beer we've ever had. I mean, all 62 draft lines were very, very fresh beer. And it was very exciting. And, um, so, uh, you know, I've kind of watched that a lot more carefully post-pandemic because I, I wanted to make sure that, you know, some local distributors weren't trying to get rid of some beer that's been sitting around for a year. Um, and, um, so I've been very careful. And I've also been doing a lot of pre-ordering. So they're, you know, some breweries are still pretty nervous about putting beer in kegs because they're afraid. What, what if things close down again? Then they have to dump all that beer. Uh, so, uh, I'm willing to say, you know, like, uh, uh, like, uh, Firestone Walker, I said, can you send me, if you send me 8 kegs of DBA I will buy them no matter what. Even if we close, I'm gonna buy them. And, um, and so they were willing to send 8 kegs of a brand that they usually don't even sell much in Chicago. And, uh, and so we were the only ones in town that had it and it was really fresh. And so, uh, it's been a lot more, um, I've been much more involved with brewery reps. And fortunately, um, a lot of breweries that I deal with have really good reps in the market, uh, including Dogfish Head with Kelly. He does a great job. Uh, and, um, so, um, I'm also, I also changed, you know, I, I'm not carrying as much bottled beer as I used to carry. We, at one time, we had 450 beers in bottles. We don't even have 100 again, and, and we never will have 450 again. We have about 90, that's enough. Uh, it's very well chosen. There's no reason for me to have a lager, a Pilsner, an IPA in a bottle or a can. That should be on draft. It should be fresh. What we carry in bottles now is Lambic, uh, Flemish sour ales, uh, stuff like that, that has long shelf life and you don't find very many places. And so we've really changed that. We've also found large format bottles don't work for us anymore. So I didn't order any, you know, I'd love to sell a 750 of Cezan DuPont to a table, but they weren't buying it. So, I, I'm not, I'm not going that route anymore. Um, but we, we, we also found that um when we first reopened, uh, there was a great deal of, um, passion for, um, Like old favorites, and like, like was mentioned earlier, Sierra Nevada pale ale. I put it on tap to reopen. I hadn't had it on tap for a long time. I've always had a Sierra Nevada beer, but not pale ale. Well, I sold about 5 kegs of it, you know, and it's like, oh my God, it's this old friend of mine, you know, that, that I, I, I can't wait to drink again. And the fact that it was super fresh. Um, people, you know, were really impressed by it. Uh, so, you know, we did, we did wanna represent our favorite breweries, the breweries that we have long relationships with, and, uh, we succeeded in that, and, uh, customers were happy and we're happy.

Speaker 1 [43:10] Selena, have you changed your ordering, uh, practices, changed up your draft versus package mix much?

Speaker 6 [43:17] Uh, actually, no. When I first opened 7.5 years ago, I probably had 100, uh, package offerings and then I have since dhittled that down and I sell very, very little package, if anything. And right now I, I only buy maybe 4 different varieties in cans for uh mystery beers and dealer's Choice beers as a special, and they're always legit, delicious beers. And I pretty much sell them sometimes at cost just because I just want to have a fun, a fun thing to, to, to give away, uh, to have as a dealer's choice or a mystery beer. Um, usually I just am straight 6 barrels. There's maybe 5, things that I could get in a half barrel cause I can move through it quickly enough. But otherwise, you know, pre-pandemic, I was the, the same thing as Michael. I just asked what was fresh. They know I check collars. They know I'll send stuff back, so they usually don't bother and are pretty upfront of. You know, if I ordered something, they're like, yeah, you don't, you don't wanna order that right now. I'll let you know when a fresh batch comes in. So, uh, it's really just always checking and using our relationships and making sure everything is as fresh as it can be and that's what goes on.

Speaker 1 [44:30] Melissa, how have you changed up your approach, if at all?

Speaker 5 [44:35] Um, I mean, we're definitely, I'm getting to buy more half barrels than I used to cause we're moving through beer a little bit faster. Um, and like I said earlier, you know, now I have a, a Bach on tap. I have some riskier, a little bit more riskier beers. Um, and we're definitely seeing like the pilsners and the lagers. People just wanna sit and hang out, you know, they wanna, they wanna be at the bar for longer than, uh, I just had two beers and I'm pretty drunk. I gotta go, you know. So, they're, they're hitting the, the lighter. I'm definitely getting requests for lighter alcohol. Um, because people wanna stay, you know, they wanna stay for 4 hours instead of 1 hour and a half hours. Um, and so that's been, that's actually been great. Uh, I always, I, I do all the ordering, um, and to be honest, it's the funnest part of everything that I do with all the entrepreneurial hats that I wear. Um, and so it's, you know, each week it's talking to all the, all the reps and finding out what's new and what's fresh and what's coming and, hey, now we're actually talking about doing beer release events again. We haven't done them in 17 months, you know. So, Um, you know, and, and for us, we have, like I said, we have 450 cans on the shelves, and, and we turn the cooler, um, about every month, um, for, for the stuff that needs to be fresh. Obviously, sours can hang out for a lot longer, um, and stouts and stuff like that. But, um, our, our sales mix is 50/50 for cans, um, um, cans and packaging and, and then draft. So, Um, we're just honestly moving through a bunch of beer, which is super exciting to me to see. I mean, there's so much beer out there, even with 450, I feel like I could use 3 or 4 more cooler doors, you know, just, just to bring in all the, all the interesting stuff that's out there.

Speaker 1 [46:11] Sam, you've got 3 publics here who have, uh, espoused their love of fresh beer and lighter beers. Uh, how is this informing, uh, the way you're going to approach the on-premise going forward?

Speaker 3 [46:26] Well, I mean, it warms my heart. There's no, there's, you know, you now you, you get it when the woman walked through Melissa's drawer, drawer and started crying tears of joy. You can see the passion, you know, Selena, Michael, and Melissa put into this, and uh when you, when, when they're calling and asking about the freshness, and so imagine like not being in your favorite pub for a year, and then going in and, and drinking a a Firestone. Or Sierra that literally came out of those great breweries like 3 weeks before, you know, that, that's just the, the, the ultimate beer lovers, and, and beer seller lovers, uh, uh, moment. So, really, really warms my heart. Uh, and, and of course, as it's already been said, certain styles were meant to be drunk super fresh, and super, and certain styles age really well, and it's cool to hear how much thought. ness is going into that as, as the three Republicans are curating their lines. Similarly for us, you know, that we, we were a brewery that at one point, I think 12% of our, our volume sales and 20% of our revenue was in 750 mL. We don't do any of that anymore. If anything, the kinds of beers we used to sell, uh, in that are down, are in still beautiful, uh. 375, like for a half pour, and that's uh seems to be a more, more meaningful, uh, uh, pour. The, the other thing I'll say is our own locations, and we do make a seltzer just for on-premise. Uh, we're, we're not distributing it, but we are canning that, uh, to go. Maybe I'd like to take a little of my time and, and ask about, you know, I know Melissa only sells, uh, cider and wine in addition to, to To beer, but just like generally the mix for the three publicans, if we call now, everyone is talking about the fourth category. So if you were to split your pie into 4 pieces of beer, uh, wine, uh, spirits, and all other 4th category, whether it's alcohol, kombucha, uh, seltzer, canned cocktail, etc. where, where are each of you guys in that 4-piece pie roughly as a percentage?

Speaker 4 [48:35] Um, you know, I mean, overwhelmingly, um, you know, beer is king and, and draft beer is king for me. Um, and, uh, and then the, the next level is wine for us. And then the next level below that is cider. And, and then cocktails, and then there's like all else, which includes coffee and tea and soda, and, you know, non-alcoholic beer, um, stuff like that, you know. Um, you know, I, I, I don't do, like, hard kombucha is not interesting to me. I don't, I don't have any call for it. Um, if, if, uh, hard seltzer went away tomorrow, it wouldn't mean anything to me. Um, You know, I mean, we're a beer bar, and that's what we love. We happen to, you know, personally, I love drinking wine, so I love to carry really great wine as well. Uh, uh, if, if I just had beer and wine, I could probably survive without even trying to do all the other things. But, you know, I mean, a, a license in Illinois includes selling everything, so we do. Um, But, uh, you know, uh, draft beer is king, and, and, uh, the volume we're selling beer right now is just, I mean, it's phenomenal. I have 62 draft lines, and I'm selling almost all half barrels, and almost everything sells through a half barrel in a week. Um, so, it's a lot of beer.

Speaker 5 [50:10] We're running about the same, you know, we're, we obviously sell more beer than anything else. I'd say probably 90, 95% of what we sell is beer. Um, next would be cider. Uh, and then I'd say that wine and non-alcoholic sodas are probably neck and neck for us. Um, and we don't sell any seltzer, you know, we do a little bit of hard kombucha. Um, nobody really asked for it, but the hard kombucha sales reps are really emphatic about bringing your product in. They have more energy than any sales reps I've ever met. Um, so we, we brought some in to see if people were gonna touch on it or not, and the jury is still out on that one. Yeah,

Speaker 2 [50:48] the hard kombucha PR reps are the same.

Speaker 6 [50:51] Yeah. Um, at the belfry, I'm probably 50% spirits only because I do have a lot of high-end, um, and then, uh, beer would be next. Cider, cider sells pretty well with us. Wine is very little, and I do only serve uh wine that I can get on draft, um, just because of how little I sell of it, and I do still want a quality product, uh, to go out and then I get really Yeah, no, I don't even have a seltzer category.

Speaker 2 [51:22] Well, I think uh we're gonna land this plane team. So, um, we're gonna do a rapid fire around the horn for everybody. I want everybody to end this on a high note and share with us one thing that you are most excited about in the back half of the year. Selena, let's start with you cause I know you're holding your phone and getting a crazy dealt workout right now.

Speaker 6 [51:40] Yeah. The thing I'm most excited about, I mean, just hopefully getting back to normal, though I just saw a thing that said Missouri had the highest number of new cases of COVID, so I'm just still gonna stay optimistic that we're just gonna keep on moving in the right direction and just keep on selling beer, keep on selling. Spirits and food and everything else and being able to engage with everyone.

Speaker 2 [52:03] Michael, what's one thing you're looking forward to?

Speaker 4 [52:05] I'm super optimistic. Uh, I, I'm looking forward to starting to do events again. Uh, we actually have an event tonight. Um, we're doing a rollout for the local Revolution Brewery, uh, um, and, uh, we'll see how that goes. Uh, that's the first real event we've done. Um, but I am, I, I am thinking that, you know, The rest of the summer is gonna be really, really great. Um, I am looking forward to, um, getting back our full food menu and bringing back, um, you know, getting back to where we're fully staffed. Um, and, uh, when we're fully staffed and we're able to, you know, have our full food menu, and I'll feel like Things are, are normal. I have to say, um, if things go as they have gone since April 1st, um, we're, we're better than we were in 2019. We're doing as well as we did five years ago. I mean, we're, we're booming.

Speaker 2 [53:06] That's great. Melissa, what are you most looking forward to for the rest of the year?

Speaker 5 [53:10] And I can echo, I can echo what um Selena and Michael said, but honestly, and Michael touched on this briefly, we sold out our entire cellar during COVID. I don't have any, any awesome, you know, beers and bottles that are hiding back there that we get to bring out. And so, I'm, I'm stoked to build that cellar back up, you know, I think most beer places, in order to survive, we're like, oh my God, sell it, sell it all, sell it all, you know, and so all these beautiful huge beers went out. Um, to customers, and so, my shelves are empty right now. I'm, I'm looking to get that cellar filled back up and, and then be able to celebrate some of those pretty awesome and really different beers.

Speaker 2 [53:46] That sounds like a really fun and delicious task. Sam, my friend, last word to you. What are you most looking forward to for the back half of this year?

Speaker 3 [53:54] Oh, just echoing a lot of, a lot of, a lot of the comments of, of the three fellow panelists here, the, the event, like it's one thing to be back in that space with the people who love what you love and share that love in a real room, uh, and Clink Pinets, and for me it'd be the music events, you know, uh, we're the official Brea Records Stour Day, and we've had original acts on our stage every weekend up till COVID for 24 years. And so we just booked one of my favorite bands called Yola Tango, uh, who will do the first national show on our stage in, in September. I'm gonna do a small can release of the three tartest fruits in America called Whoa, that's Tangy, and put the, put that release out the night that Yola Tango's on our stage, and I'll be upfront, uh, saluting the band, but also saluting everyone in the room, and uh uh for those about to rock, we salute you, and, uh, you know, you guys as panelists rock, Justin, Justin, Jess, uh, this has been, this has been great, great fun. So you guys, we all made it through a hot fucking mess together, and I salute you guys on what you bring to what you do every day.

Speaker 1 [55:00] Sam, I, that is a great way to end it, although I'm only slightly disappointed that you're not looking forward to Brew Tas live and in person, September 9th at CBC. Uh, we'll say that that's mine for the back half of the year, so I am looking forward to that, but. That's Brutox. Uh, this virtual Brutox is in the books. It's possibly the last one, and we won't have any more technical issues or anything unless I just go catatonic live and in person, but Sam will be there, and Jess will be there, and that's likely not gonna happen. Thank you to Sam, Selena, Melissa, and Michael, as well as our first panel of Bart, Dannell, and Jason. Thanks to all of you for tuning in. A big thank you to our audio team. A final thank you to Dogfish Head for presenting Brewals, as well as our sponsors, the Reyes Beer Division and Brew One by John I. Haas. We will see you at CBC. Thanks for tuning in.