Brew Talks Denver 2022 - After the IPApocalypse: What Comes Next After Craft’s Most Popular Style

Justin Fonte [00:15] I'm Justin Fonte, Brewban managing editor. I'm super psyched for our second conversation today, guys. It's something I've been thinking a lot about lately, so we are going to dig in. Uh, IPAs accounted for 44.77% of craft beer dollar sales year to date through September 4th, according to market research firm IRI. The style dwarfs all others by comparison. The next two largest craft styles are seasonals, which is 8.7%. of craft beer dollars and Belgium wits 8.4% and this is all off-premise data. So you know, take that with a grain of salt. But you know, more than half of the SKUs and IRI's list of the top 30 craft brands are IPAs. It's undeniable that IPAs dominate craft beer, but can it stay that way and should it? So to break this down, we've got a panel of experts with diverse job titles and breweries who are here to talk it all out. So, uh, please join me in welcoming Mark Safari, Dogfish Head brewmaster. Hey, Mark.

Speaker 2 [01:13] Hello.

Justin Fonte [01:14] Thanks for being here. Uh, Kyle Ingraham, Sierra Nevada brand director. What's up, Kyle? Hey, how's it going? Good. How are you? Uh, we also have Jess Fierro, head brewer and owner of Atravita Brew Beer Company in Colorado Springs. Hello. Hi, Jess. And Mary Mills, three-tiered beverages consultant and Nielsen IQ alum, you guys got a great shout out on the last panel.

Speaker 3 [01:37] That's right. Happy to be here.

Justin Fonte [01:40] So everybody in the room and at home, the text line is 617-336-8560. Send in your questions for these guys and I will get some answers. I know my husband is watching and he's probably going to comment on how much I swivel in this chair. So Ryan, please keep to yourself. Love you though, um. All right, let's jump in. Mark, Dogfish Head is built on a strong IPA portfolio, but 5 years ago you guys found Blockbuster success with Sequence. I've seen a lot of them in the room today. Totally unique beer, almost defies style. What was the development of that beer like, and what indicators did it show early on that it was going to be a hit?

Speaker 2 [02:23] Uh, well, you know, it was prior to the introduction of sequence, the average ABV of our portfolio was about 9%, um, and what we saw just sort of generally trending in our properties, uh, was a trend towards sort of lighter, more refreshing products, so that sort of steered us in the direction of, of sequence and. You know, we do incorporate three of the more, uh, refreshing styles of Berliner Weiss, a Goza, and a, and a Kolsch sort of all into one package there. Uh, it does have a, a somewhat of an acidity, uh, and the, the bright citrus of the, of the lime really, I think had sort of crossover appeal outside of beer, you know, with sort of your white wine drinkers, margarita drinkers, that sort of thing, and so. We just saw it take off almost immediately that people that normally wouldn't drink beer in on some occasions actually gravitated towards it because of, of those things.

Justin Fonte [03:15] Oh, that totally makes sense. Uh, Kyle, Sierra's Little Things family started out as a hazy vehicle but diversified into having a sour and a citrus sweet beer. How and why did you decide to expand the platform beyond IPAs?

Speaker 4 [03:28] So hazy Little Thing was uh just uh uh absolute rocket ship like right out of the gate. And I think you could attribute some of that to just right products, right time, um, first or, or one of the first nationally distributed hazy's, um, also just a damn good beer. But as we learned more and we talked to drinkers, we found that it was really the approachability of the brand that brought them in and that appealed to both craft drinkers as well as sort of the craft curious drinkers so we took that insight and we use that to sort of build the foundation, the positioning for the little things family, which is all about fun, approachability and inclusivity in terms of having something for everybody. Um, that then gave us permission to go do a sour and then go do a citrus wheat. Um, we have a, a Little Things lager coming out next year called Crisp Little Things. So we're going to continue to expand. We're not walking away from hazy by any means or Big Little Thing. We'll still have IPAs in the family. Uh, but we felt like it's important to maintain that approachability that the brand was, was built on, and I think that was the big learning for us is that, and I think for the industry at large is how do we make craft more approachable to bring more people in and grow the size of the pie.

Justin Fonte [04:35] I love the brand. It's super fun. Those, um, ads you guys are doing right now, the Halloween theme. What's your thing? Adorable.

Speaker 4 [04:42] Um, I also want to give a shout out to the creator, the designer of the brand who's in the room tonight. His name is Connor McMahon. He's kind of a big deal. Buy a dogfish head if you see it.

Justin Fonte [04:52] Uh, so Jess, uh, most taprooms where I live in New England have menu lists that are pretty much majority IPA, and I'm sure New England's not alone. Uh, but that is not the case at Are Vita. What styles sell best?

Speaker 5 [05:05] Uh, so Atravida is really known for the fruited and spiced type beers. I do incorporate a lot of flavors into my beer. However, I feel like the biggest sell is relatability. The minute that you can connect with that customer, the minute whether they're a connoisseur, whether they're an enthusiast, a new person coming into the industry that doesn't really know about craft beer, that's really where the sale begins.

Justin Fonte [05:32] Totally get that. Mary, IPA has led craft beer dollar sales forever. Do you see a time ever when that might not be the case, or has the horse completely left the barn?

Speaker 3 [05:42] Yeah, good question. Um, and I want to start real quick by just saying I'm the data nerd of the group and um so you'll hear a lot of numbers from me today. Um, everything I'm sourcing three tier partners with Nielsen IQ, so I'm talking Nielsen data for point of sale data and CGA data for on-premise. So I just wanted to throw that out there, um, but yeah, I think, you know, to, to answer your question, the horse has left the barn in some instances. I mean, as you said, over close to 50% of sales are IPA. Um, I think what craft brewers have done really well though is that they've innovated within IPAs. So, you know, the Sierra Nevada example, the Hazey's, the Imperials, the double IPAs. So what's interesting is that um traditional IPAs used to make up 75% of that IPA space, and that's now below 60%. So you have these other styles within IPA that are still driving growth.

Justin Fonte [06:39] Now we've been asking if this is going to be the year of the lager annually for like 6 years now, um, and it never seems to happen despite the most fervent wishes of, uh, veteran beer geeks like me. But Kyle, you just dropped a little bit of knowledge, uh, about what's happening, uh, with the Little Things family. So we're going to go around down the line with all three of you guys about how loggers, you know, play in your respective portfolios, but Kyle, tell us a little bit about Chris Little Thing first.

Speaker 4 [07:07] Yeah, crisp little thing is exactly what it sounds like. It's an easy drinking approachable lager, you know, the, the approach on the little things, beers specifically has been, you know, complex styles made, made approachable or simplified, a little hard to, to simplify a lager, but we also want to make sure that it was still approachable and that we weren't trying to go too traditional or too polarizing, which craft lagers, I think, can, can get to sometimes, um, so we're really excited about that beer as a compliment to the rest of the beers in our new party pack, um. But I want to talk about seasonals just for a sec, so. You know, we've had a hard time traditionally um getting national year-round lagers to stick for for a variety of reasons. We do have a pretty rich history in seasonal lagers, so like Summerfest and Octoberfest and beers like that that are really perfect for the moment or the occasion or just that time of year. Um, admittedly we have sort of walked away from that in the last couple of years. Um, I will be honest with you, uh, it's a therapy session, right? We're in the nest, right? And so we're in the tree. I am the person that stood in front of leadership a couple of years ago and said we should make our seasonals LIPAs because they were really struggling. Um, don't punch me, sorry, and, uh. And it was the right thing to do at the time. We had good rationale and we actually saw a bump in sales, as you would expect, just given the size of the category, but we also heard it from, from drinkers pretty loudly and, and from the trade press as well. There was a Pace magazine article that definitely hit home, um, called us out a little bit, rightfully so. And so we took a step back and just reevaluated the role of loggers in the portfolio and realized that, you know, while Sierra Nevada is really built on hops and IPAs, um, it's still important to give the drinker that that reprieve from just this constant onslaught of uh of hoppy beers. So um with that, I'm actually proud to share, I think for the first time. That we're bringing back Summerfest and Oktoberfest next year is our summer and fall seasonals respectively. So super excited about that.

Justin Fonte [09:00] You heard it here first at Brewbound Brew Brew exclusive. That's right. I fucking love a scoop. Thank you, Kyle.

Speaker 4 [09:08] Trouble.

Justin Fonte [09:09] Well, I hope you're not in trouble. I hope I'm not in trouble, but I think the entire Brewbound Bevnet team is well accustomed to my profanity. So, uh, Mark, you guys in the past, what, 3+ years now have a buddy who has a lager rich portfolio in my former employer, Boston Beer slash Sam Adams. But how does, how do lagers play for dogfish? Is this something you guys dabble in?

Speaker 2 [09:33] Uh yeah, most certainly. I mean, as a brewer, you know, I'm all about, you know, the year of the lager. I wish it was here. One day, one day we do actually do a Pilsner beer that's more regional and we do include it in variety packs. It's called Blue Hen Pilsner and the blue hen is the state bird of Delaware, so there's some some local appeal there. We incorporate local malts and. To it our our tasting rooms and tap room uh also we have lagers on all the time if we based our portfolio on what our coworkers drink, it would be lager all the way because that's what everybody's shifty is, um, but, uh, I'm just, uh, as a brewer I enjoy the, you know, the, the challenge of making lagers and having a partner like with Sam Adams to. Uh, sort of up our lager game I think is great, and I think you probably might see some other loggers in the portfolio next year and perhaps a variety pack or something like that, but nothing, not a nationally distributed one at this point.

Justin Fonte [10:27] Awesome. I mean that makes so much sense for you guys. You're, you know, built on really interesting creative ales, and we're going to get to that in a minute or two, but Jess, how do loggers play for you guys?

Speaker 5 [10:37] So I enjoy as a brewer building the recipes for, and as Mark said it is challenging actually to do a, a really well-done lager. Uh, we do have Dolores Huerta, which is our Mexican lager. We were fortunate enough to win a, um, an award for it actually at Mile High, which was really cool, um, but for us, I mean, Really, at the end of the day, what it boils down to is drinkability and is that is my husband always says there's always, you know, everyone who writes a recipe as a brewer, it's about 10% recipe, 90% heart, right? And I take that really to every single recipe that I do. But lagers as a whole do really, really well. People love it. They're light, they're crisp, they're refreshing, all of those good things, and Atrevida, we do sell them really, really well, both the light and the dark.

Justin Fonte [11:33] Awesome. That makes a ton of sense. Um, you know, Mary, we know most of the growth in the beer category, at least in recent years, probably not really this one and maybe not the last one, has been driven by hard seltzers. Uh, so in addition to that, Mexican imports are driving a lot of growth and so are hazy IPs of varying strengths, but where is there white space within core beer outside of those buckets?

Speaker 3 [11:55] Yeah, it's a good question. I, I do think we'll still see some growth from Beyond Beer. So even though seltzers are declining now, I think, um, you know, we're seeing growth in F&Bs, um, things like kombucha, hard teas, so I think we'll still see some growth there. But I think for core beer, you know, an area I think a lot of people are kind of keeping their eye on, rightfully so, is, is the non-alk space and low alk space. Um, I, I think there's just still a lot of opportunity for growth there.

Justin Fonte [12:22] Uh, great, uh, audience question and thank you so much for sending this in and I'm gonna pitch this to all of you guys, but Kyle, I'm gonna start with you because I think it certainly applies to what you guys have going on. But, uh, this viewer wants, uh, your thoughts on line extensions. Is it important for line extensions to be for the same style of beer?

Speaker 4 [12:40] I think it really comes down to the drinker and and and who you're making it for and what are they looking for. So it's not exactly a line extension, but I'll talk about variety packs for a sec. I think there's two schools of thought or two different approaches for variety packs. One is an all IPA pack, for example, for that person that's going to put them in the fridge and drink them all because they just like IPAs. But then you've got something like the Little Things party pack which has a diversity of styles because it's something you might bring to a social occasion. You want something for different plates, so I think there's something to be said for, for that variety, but it really depends on the drinker that you're targeting.

Justin Fonte [13:13] Mark, what about for Dogfish when you guys play in different platforms, how does that work?

Speaker 2 [13:16] Well, we, we don't tend to line extend other than the, the series, the continually hopped IPAs, um, so it's kind of hard to do anything as a continually hop something that isn't an IPA, but you never know, uh, but you know, we really haven't looked at line extensions. We're kind of. Sort of poking around the edges on that, maybe talking about is that, is that a way to go as a variety pack or something in the future, but, but nothing right now.

Justin Fonte [13:39] I feel like. Um, but Mark, let's stick with you. How has Sequence changed Dogfish's drinker base, and what about canned cocktails on the same turn? How, how, what are those doing for the Dogfish drinker family? Well,

Speaker 2 [13:56] I think it brought a lot, both, both products brought a lot more people into our drinking, into the drinking family of dogfish products. I mean, I already spoke about Sequence being, uh, you know, attracting some wine drinkers and sort of the margarita type drinker. Uh, the canned cocktail space is, is pretty hot right now. We've got 4 really great products behind me there, uh, that are growing very rapidly. Uh, we were able to incorporate our DNA of using culinary ingredients in them, so they are sort of true to our DNA. I think people respond to that um they are a true sort of over the bar type of mixed cocktail that you might get at a at a local bar um and I think people are really responding to that in a big way and we're gonna continue to play in that space we've been distilling for almost 20 years now but uh. And we launched our first RTD as a pourover called Sonic Archaeology back in 2017, but the canned cocktails has just really become a rocket ship, and it is a crowded space when you go to any liquor store anymore, and we just do what we can to stand out by just kind of focusing on culinary ingredients and being really true to our DNA.

Justin Fonte [15:01] So speaking of that DNA, I mean dogfish heads, beers are usually creative and unexpected. Walk us through your brainstorming process.

Speaker 2 [15:09] Oh boy. Well, it's not just my brainstorming process. I mean, one of the at, at the heart of our company is, is collaboration. So, uh, Sam is involved in every product we make. Um, uh, Brian Selders, who's sitting over there somewhere, uh, who is our brewing manager at our pub in, in Rehoboth and our other properties, um, we all get involved in that process and, um. It, it, it really, there is no sort of cut and dried way that we approach it. Somebody has a great idea or we see an interesting ingredient or read a great story or see a technique on a cooking show, you know, continual hopping would be one of those things, for instance, um, you know, inspiration comes from everywhere, you know, we're, we're all a bunch of foodies, so they tend to kind of come from that space. Um, and you know, really we just sort of riff off of each other's ideas and uh that's, you know, so there is not really a cut and dried process. We do have an innovation brewery within the large brewery in Milton and we also use the pub to do, uh, you know, to try new ideas and test them with the public, uh. We, we are able to use, we had a program called Beer Exploration Journal that allowed us to get real-time feedback from, from people drinking our products. It also had a back end on it that allowed us to sort of store everything by ingredients so we could say how many beers did we make with kiwi and how did they perform and things like that. And we're actually expanding that program with a with a new, a new platform rolling out to all the Boston beer locations in the in the year.

Justin Fonte [16:36] So that sounds like a ton of work, um, but hats off for sure. So Kyle, Sierra Nevada is building an innovation center, so it sounds like, you know, a lot of similar things that will be going on. That'll be in Chico for products that are outside of traditional beer. Uh, the company's already pushing hard behind Hop Splash, which is a non-alcoholic hops sparkling water. How big of an opportunity do you see in sparkling hot water?

Speaker 4 [17:02] Yeah, I mean, first on, on the innovation center, um, it's really exciting for selfishly for me and for the brewers just to have all these new toys to play with as you can imagine, Ken Grossman does not, um, go cheap on, you know, all the latest latest and greatest, um, you know, technology and so forth, so it's gonna open up a lot of opportunities and we will innovate in beer, uh, there as well. It's not just for Beyond Beer products, but you know, it's, um. I'll, I'll, I'll sort of harken back to a philosophy that our CEO Jeff White is trying to instill in the company and has been advocating is sort of a yes and strategy, and that is, yes, we're still going to innovate in beer, and yes, we're still going to make great craft beers, but the and part sort of opens up some interesting opportunities to kind of meet the drinker where they're at. Where they're going because nobody's really just drinking craft beer. I mean Mary knows that from the data. It's like it actually could be a kind of a small share if you look at the totality of everything that people are consuming and more and more that diversity we want to be able to offer those things too, so it's going to give us that flexibility. Hopsplash is a good example of that. Um, you know, we're not the first ones to get in that game. Constellation, Heineken have been there. I'm sure there's more to come. What we're excited about is that it represents an incremental opportunity. So we just recently had our national distributor meetings both east and west, and Hop Splash was the number one most consumed product by distributors because they could drink it in the morning, they could drink it at lunch, they could drink it in the afternoon, in between beers that night. So from that standpoint, it really is. Incremental. It's not replacing a beer occasion for the most part. Um, and also it's rooted in hops, and that's something that's really close to our heart. Yeah,

Justin Fonte [18:31] super, super close to your DNA. I totally get it. Where do you want to have that merchandise in stores

Speaker 4 [18:35] in the NA beer set, you know, we've tested it in a few different locations and it performs exponentially better when it's in the NA beer set, probably because it's niche right now and that's sort of the consumer and the need state that we're going after. But you know, once LaCroix makes a hoppy water, then maybe that'll change.

Justin Fonte [18:50] Uh, so Kyle mentioned how nobody just drinks craft beer and people drink all sorts of things, but you know, Jess, you are, you've got the taproom, you see the drinkers right there. Uh, when people who aren't craft drinkers come into your taproom with their more beer inclined friends, what do you notice them ordering?

Speaker 5 [19:07] I actually noticed them, uh, looking at our menu and really just relating to the flavor profiles more than the style of or the variety of beer. Um, so for example, I have, um, a more complex American wheat called La Gran Senora, um, and then I have a true to style Mexican lager that's, uh, Dolores Huerta, and so then it just becomes a matter of really just dialogue, right? What do you drink? Are you more of a wine connoisseur? Do you drink Bud Light? You know, we see all these, or not all these, I should say, but you, you've seen the jokes, you've seen the taprooms, you've seen the, the breweries that will have that water tap that says Bud Light or it says Michelob, you know, and making a menu that's a little less intimidating and less ridiculing to someone means that you're gaining that person. With that one person may come 20, may come 10. May come 30, we don't know. So the, the whole point really is to be able to create that dialogue, create an experience with that person, and at the end of the day really find out where their palate is and on your menu, how does that fit, um, and having, you know, being, being able to diversify your menu to have a product that you can say, oh, you know what, La Grand Senora is exactly for you. You're, you're a little bit of a wine drinker, you like, you know, the, the, the more red flavors. OK, perfect, that's your beer. Um, I'm more of a seltzera person. I, I want something light. I want something clean. Cool. There's Dolores Huerta. I want something fun. Cool. There's, uh, drunken churro, you know, so it's really just about talking to that person. I have a lot of fun names. Um, it's really, and, and really that's part of the sale, right? I mean, we have, my daughter just made a beer called Hot Girl Summer, you know, and, and, and so when you get your, you know, your so-called hipsters that come in. And you know, are looking at the menu, 9 times out of 10, they're gonna order the Hot Girl Summer. Um, if there, if there's someone that wants something a little bit more fun or there's someone, I have a lot of folks from Texas that come in and, well, what do you know about Juneteenth? Well, let me tell you, you know, Juneteenth is one of my beers. I worked with the um Black and Latino Coalition Leadership Coalition. They came in, they did a reading. I released the beer that was an ode to the big red soda, which was their celebratory drink, um, so now people become invested. Now people really can relate to your menu, to your product, and not only that, but now in every single dollar we know that there's buying power and that's where that buying power comes into play.

Justin Fonte [21:40] Awesome. I mean, I think, you know, when you think, and this is like this, I had this experience at the end of the summer. I was out to dinner with my mom at the Jersey Shore and I was eavesdropping on the people next to us and I love listening to people when they're trying to figure out what to order. Uh, I'm a creep, like journalism is 80% just being a creep. And this man who was probably my mom's age, he looked like he could have been out of central casting from The Sopranos, and I can say this because he would fit right into my family. But he was like, I don't know, I want a beer, a nice beer, maybe one of these IPOs, and he just kept saying IPO over again. And when you think about like, beer drinkers who don't quite have as much knowledge as we would like them to have. To them, IPA is synonymous with craft beer. And maybe if they've had like something really bitter and really hoppy a few years ago, and their palate wasn't ready for it, maybe it turned them off and maybe that's what's kind of kept them away. So, um, Mary, how important is it for craft beer to diversify beyond IPAs?

Speaker 3 [22:35] Yeah, it's a great question, and I love what Jess was talking about because I think that's just what embodies craft beer is the story behind it and, you know, the uniqueness to it, and I think that's what draws people into the craft beer category. And I think when we were talking about lagers and pilsners, you know, a lot. Times I think craft brewers haven't gone down some of those paths because they can be done in other segments, and IPA, as you said, is synonymous with craft, and people really, you know, think of it as the crafty craft, and I think that's kind of what sticks, but I think, you know, it really is a unique. Um, to every, every brewer, um, in terms of if it's, if it's IPAs that they focus on or beyond that, and, you know, great examples of pivoting off of what your core was yesterday versus today, but I think, you know, what it comes down to. is right now, as we all know, the shelf space is coveted and hard to come by and so I think you have to really do what works for you and pay attention to what's turning on the shelf and you know, don't, you know. Don't mess up something good, you know, focus on what's working.

Justin Fonte [23:47] That is excellent advice. Now, Mark and Kyle, you guys are long established, well-known craft brands. Um, are there certain styles in your portfolios that you see as being entryway beers?

Speaker 2 [24:00] Uh, sure, uh, so Slightly Mighty is probably one that, uh, we launched and I, the time flies, probably 6 years ago. A low calorie IPA, it's attractive to people that came that come from outside of craft. It's something they can relate to. The flavor profile is not as aggressive because you can't really do that in a 4% ABV beer with 95 calories, but it does have a lot of tropical fruit impression and things like that. We, we talked about sequence, you know, bringing people in as well. We also make a white beer called Namaste that's got lemongrass and orange peel and uh. You know, the spices, coriander, and, and, you know, those are all beers that people can relate to. The flavor profile is, is interesting and delicious, and they're refreshing, and they're not palate saturating, and I think that's when you're looking at gateway drinkers coming into your brand, that's something that I think will scare people away is if something is just overly aggressive, it's easy for them to say that's too much for me and giving them something that's more akin to what they're accustomed to with, with perhaps a little bit more in the flavor profile is really the way to go.

Speaker 4 [25:02] Kyle, how about a tier? Yeah, I mean, I mentioned little things earlier, uh, that's definitely a good, good example, but, um, I want to talk about pale ales for a second, not just our pale ale, just pale ales in general. Um, if you think about it, and I'll just use Sierra Nevada, you know, 40 years ago, 30 years ago, it was Sierra Nevada pale ale in a lot of cases that introduce people to craft beer. Um, I would venture to say there's probably some folks in this room that Mark included that that was maybe their first beer. It was definitely my first craft beer, um, and it kind of, you know, you know. Turned this love affair, you know, for craft and so now pale ales have kind of gotten a little bit tired, you know, with all the IPAs coming out and, and I think that's a style that we need to get back to because I think it can still have a similar impact that it did back in the day because of that balance between hops and malts and bitter and sweet. It can really exemplify all the great things that a craft beer can, can offer. So make more pale ales please.

Justin Fonte [25:55] I, no argument here. Uh, one last plug for the text line, if you have questions for these guys, 617-336-8560. Uh, said that slow for everybody so you could type it down. Um, so, I mean, Mary, what does data tell us about frequent IPA buyers? How loyal are they to the style? What do you like, do you, are there trends that you see in their basket rings?

Speaker 3 [26:21] Yeah, uh, Kyle kind of referenced this earlier that, you know, it's, it is hard to get strong loyalty in a space like this. So we see that IPA buyers are about 30% loyal, and that's thinking about their total beer purchases. So 30% of their dollars from beer are spent on IPAs, and that's actually really strong. Um, craft beer as a total is 40%. Um, so you know they are loyal, um, I, you know, any other style is you're looking at 10% or below, um, so I think what that shows is that they're just, they are looking for variety, so it's, it's a strong loyal base, but I think they, you know, are open to, to trying other things too.

Justin Fonte [27:05] Tracks, excellent audience question written so poetically. If IPA is synonymous with craft, is not lager synonymous with macro beer? Good question. And if so, how does craft ever really compete with non-craft drinkers in that space? Maybe this is why we've never seen the year of the lager. What do you guys think about that?

Speaker 4 [27:26] I mean, I'll, I'll, the, the pricing is, is really tough to compete with, frankly, for, for a craft or even a large craft brewry like ourselves, um, you know, we just can't compete with, with, with the macros, and, and also they do a really good job. They make very, very consistent beer at a high quality, and they deliver on what that drinker's looking for. So I think the trick is how do we, you know, give them a reason, um, or a point of difference to want to trade up and choose that craft lager versus their normal, you know, macro.

Justin Fonte [27:53] Anybody want to build? All right. Uh, so Mark, Dogfish launched a non-alcoholic beer last year, year before. Time means nothing to me. So 2 years, I think it was 2 years, 2 years ago. OK, cool. Um, NA beer has been a growth area, though it does have a smaller base. Justin and Becca Chalk been the last panel, but what did you learn from that launch?

Speaker 2 [28:17] Uh, well, we learned obviously that it was a growth area and we learned a lot about, um, making, uh, non-alcoholic beer, you know, and we made the decision to pull our product and and really have the Sam Adams brand focused on sort of classic styles in that space that it played well with that. And so we could focus on canned cocktails and our beer portfolio really we want to go deep into those and rather than being sort of an inch deep and a mile wide and you know we're a smallish brand so that really made sense for us.

Justin Fonte [28:48] Yeah, I totally. I love how you guys are able to, you know, swap ideas and styles back and forth and figure out what brand it makes sense for. I really think that's gonna be what we'll see a lot more as people's, you know, as breweries do start to team up and we see more platforms evolve. Um, Kyle, how does Sierra view the NA beer opportunity?

Speaker 4 [29:06] I mean it's, it's definitely something we're working on. I mean, Hop slash is essentially an NA, um, or our first sort of non-alcohol offering which I think meets a similar consumer needs state. Um, we've been working on NA beers for a long time before they were cool, um, but we just haven't been able to, to, to achieve one that was up to our standards or frankly up to, to Ken's standards from, um, just overall quality and flavor standpoint. So it's the one thing that we're just not gonna do until we feel like it's something we're really proud of. But the good news is it doesn't seem that the category is going anywhere. Um, it's growing tremendously but still small, uh, and even craft NA within greater NA is still really small as well, so there's a ton of room for growth, um, and I look forward to more players getting in and really validating what a great NA craft beer can be.

Justin Fonte [29:51] Jess, how does the spectrum of, of ABB play out in your taproom on your menu?

Speaker 5 [29:56] We're a little bit on the higher side, so probably our lowest ABV beer, um, aside from one of my, um, what was it called, Hopwafina, which was like a 4.5. You do. I have fun names or creative like that, um. But typically the ABV range is going to be anywhere from about 6.7 to about 90, you are, yeah, so we're, we're up there. We're up

Justin Fonte [30:21] there, but I mean like that's like you have a point of view and you know who you are and what you do and what fits in in your portfolio. That's really what it's all about, I think

Speaker 5 [30:29] it is. It is, and it's hard, right, to keep the ABV down when you have a lot of additions and, and adjuncts and stuff like that, um. However, folks that come in, they do respond to that, and, and you, you'll have your newer folks to craft beer that come in and just they don't look at names, they're gonna look at all ABDs, right? What's the highest ABV? That's what I want. Um, and so the point is, and, and the responsibility then comes to the server and or myself to educate that person and say, hey, that might be the highest ABV, but that might not be the flavor profile that you're looking for. Maybe we try something like this, you know, and so that way you're also starting to kind of diversify their palate in that, in that sense, um, but we are a little bit higher on the ABV scale. But

Justin Fonte [31:15] I mean that's, I mean, those, I Mary could tell us those are selling really well. Um, but Mary, we know the, the non-A space has some pretty large players, obviously Athletic, Lagunitas, Brooklyn. Um, Is there still room for anyone else to get in in a meaningful way? Yeah,

Speaker 3 [31:30] absolutely. I, I think, you know, as Kyle said, it's, um, it's a big space. I think it's close to 400 million now and it's growing. Still at 20%, um, but it's less than 1% of the beer category. So I think, you know, it's still very small in the grand scheme of things and I think there's a consumer need and desire for, you know, these more lifestyle, you know, more health alternative, um, things out there, so I think there's definitely opportunity for it. I think people are seeing. Um, you know, one of you was talking about the, uh, drinking one in the morning or at lunchtime, you know, that I think people are finding that there's more occasions than they ever realized to bring those in, and so I think that will continue to, um, you know, just become more familiar for people and so there'll be more opportunity for sure.

Justin Fonte [32:20] Fantastic. Uh, great audience question. Somebody loves Modelo. So, uh, for as popular as Modelo seems to be, uh, why aren't there more craft black lagers, especially from larger craft breweries? I have a hunch, and that's, that's extremely difficult style to make, but maybe you guys can shed some light on this.

Speaker 2 [32:38] A raft black lager, we, we do them at our pub in our tasting room, uh, often. I, I love a Czech dark pit lager. I mean they're just amazing, um, you know, a lot of it is, uh, you know, just really there's, I, I think in that space there's a, a very small group of people that enjoy that dark lager and other people are still somewhat afraid of the dark, uh, especially with that lager space, you know, they, they prefer that, that pale golden lager, and I mean that. They said this country consumes a ton of that, and that's what people are really gravitating towards. So I will continue to do my dark check lager in the tasting room, life before memes. Stop by any time in the winter and we will have it on tap for you. Um, but right, yeah, that's, that's kind of where I see it is the, the, the dark lager really it suffers from what people that are afraid of dark beers, I think it's going to be like super big roasty, when it's not

Justin Fonte [33:36] a huge bummer. Back in the day when Sam Adams used to make black lager, I used to use it to make French onion soup, and it was delicious, but um. Perhaps a topic that we can discuss.

Speaker 2 [33:48] You may, you may find some happiness in your future. Oh.

Justin Fonte [33:52] Oh, so much news here at Brewbound Brew Talks. Perhaps what though you didn't say what, but you know, I'm smarter than the average. No, I'm not. Um, um, yeah, maybe we can keep some of these little news tidbit tidbits going at a Brewbound Live next month. So if you guys are interested, it'll be November 29th and 30th. Um, so we keep talking about the year of the logger and, and we live under the domination of IPAs, but, uh, I know that if I had my biggest wish come true of, of what is the next massive style, it's probably that check dark lagers. But what about you guys? What would you love to see just like rise to prominence and we'll, we'll wrap this up after this one because I know it's a fun one and nobody wants to go back to the hard questions after that. Oh,

Speaker 4 [34:40] I, I mean, I'll, I'll start. I, so staying on the, the dark beer, uh, topic, I'd love to see lower ABV stouts become a thing again, um, you know, peanut butter stouts and all the different flavors, chocolate, vanilla, cocoa. I mean, I, there's so much you can do with a stout base, but oftentimes, whether they're bare laced or not, they start creeping up towards 10% and you can only drink so much of that. Um, but I think something that's more crushable, a little bit lighter, but still has that flavor and that mouthfeel of a stout, um, is really intriguing to me.

Justin Fonte [35:09] Yeah, here for that, absolutely.

Speaker 3 [35:11] Yeah, I think just to tag on to that, I, I, you were talking about the slightly Mighty which I'm drinking right now because if I were to drink an 8% beer while talking on this panel, it wouldn't go well, um, but I think that there's, you know, there is just more opportunity generally across styles for those, you know, as we're talking about with these different occasions that people are finding that might be. Useful to have something that's lower ABV. It'd be interesting to see because to me, and you know, I, I don't think there's any big brewers here, but to me when, when I discovered this, I'm like, why would I ever drink a Miller Lite again, you know, like I mean this is something that has much more flavor but still has the lower ABV, the lower calories, so it'd be interesting to see how that can play in other styles.

Speaker 2 [35:53] I, I don't know that I would go with any one particular style. I just think. That really just people you know exploring outside the IPA space, the hazy IPA space, you know, the classic Ceison's, you know, lagers, dark, dark lagers which I am a fan of, uh, and, and I do love an Irish dry stout, you know, in that, in that sort of Guinness vein. I just, I just wish people would, you know, give, give an opportunity for brewers to explore those in their portfolio a little bit more and give them some love, because there is a broad diversity of beer styles out there and you know IPA is the monster in the craft category right now and I just would like to see. You know, some other, some other styles get some love.

Justin Fonte [36:36] Fantastic. Jess, we'll give you the last word,

Speaker 5 [36:38] my friend. Hey, I, I, I'm kind of with Kyle here. I do. I'm a big stout importer girl, um, but the white stouts, the whites, there, there's so much you can do and so many flavors that you can incorporate in a stout. And have it so well balanced where it's still going to taste like a stout, like a beer at the end of the day, right? And that's, that's really that happy medium that you want to reach. That's that sweet spot. So I'm, I'm a big proponent for, for stouts and white stouts and the variations that you can do with that. So fun.

Speaker 4 [37:07] Let's do a collab. I'm down. Let's do

Justin Fonte [37:09] it. We are making magic happen here today. I am honored to be a part of this. Uh, well, that is it. We're going to let you guys in the room get back to beers and networking. Everybody at home, thank you so much for tuning in. As always, the biggest thank you to our presenting sponsor, Dogfish Head. Uh, thank all of you for being here. Mark, Kyle, Mary, Jess, uh, our supporting sponsors, the Ray's Beer Division, crafted ERP ahead of the curve and the e-premise group. Uh, thank you to all, all of you for taking some time before the festival tonight and hopefully I will see all of you for a beer later. Thanks guys. Thank you.