Brew Talks Boston 2023: After the Haze Craze Whats Next for New England IPAs

Speaker 1 [00:10] Alright, so joining me to talk about the haze craze and what comes next, we have to my left right here Dino Funari, founder of Vitamin Sea. Then next we have Naveen Pawar, co-founder of Mighty Squirrel, Megan Parisi, who is the head brewer over at the Samuel Adams Boston Taproom down over by Faneuil Hall, and Kimberly Golinski, who's president and general manager of Wormtown. Welcome guys. I also want to shout out that we have a text line so if you have any questions for our panelists either on this panel or the one after our break later just text 617-336-8560. We'll repeat it again throughout the day, but, uh, let us know if you have any questions. One more time, I got you. It's 617-336-8560. So the reason why we're having this panel is hazy IPAs, New England IPAs, they had their big craze. Now it seems like we're kind of getting to somewhere where it's maybe a little stagnant or that the growth is slowing down. Imperials are all the rage right now, um, but. The reason why we want to talk about this is it's become such a wide array of beers within this definition. So let's start and go down the panel and say, what even is a New England hazy IPA? What is it to you? How do you define it and how are you participating in that style? Do you know what you want to start? Well,

Speaker 2 [01:42] I would say the word stagnant probably isn't the right word. I think of it more as like. Maturity. I, I think we're in that kind of a phase right now, uh, for us it's always been about that haze, right? So we typically call them hazy IPAs versus New England IPAs, and I know we've, we've also talked about them being more juicy versus bitter, and I, I, I'd say that probably encompasses how we describe them.

Speaker 1 [02:07] Naveen, what, what are you making that fits in this style?

Speaker 3 [02:11] Yeah, like, uh, from our perspective, uh, yeah, like juicy IPA or New IPA or hazy IPA, so they kind of go together, uh, even though sometimes I would like to think that it's more about the juice, that it should be juicy to be considered a New England IPA, right? But, but at the same time, and each time I think about that, and then I go on the Instagram and somebody's posting a picture of a hazy IPA, they're like, oh, it's so juicy. I'm like, How do you figure out it's juicy from a picture on Instagram? So, actually, anyways, uh, uh, but yeah, that, that's the world we live in, uh, right now, actually. And so New England IPA is more, even though I would like to believe it's more about juiciness, but, uh, Hazy defines the New England IPA at this moment.

Speaker 4 [02:59] Yeah, I think it gets, it's, it's gotten kind of, you know, dare I say murky over the past several years where originally, you know, New England IPA had its big hallmark of not just the haze, but that juiciness, that real juice forward, uh, you know, profile, but the style and that, that hazy range has expanded to, to encompass and welcome more, you know, non-super juicy flavors where it's not just like drinking. You know, hoppy orange juice, um, so you, you, it's there's not really one style definition or even how we're approaching it exactly as say at the taproom, but so, but I, I won't define, uh, a hazy beer as a New England style if it's not juicy for me, then it kind of falls into a hazy category because for me I still have in my mind that. The the main hallmark of New England style IPA is going to be that juiciness. Then there's the hazy IPA category. Then there's the milkshakes. Then there's the fruit at hazy's, it just, it just goes on and on. But for me, the hallmark of the New England style is still that juice forward profile.

Speaker 5 [04:05] I have to agree with everything they've said, you know, at Wormtown we've got our East Coast and our West Coast, and our West Coast is our flagship, which is kind of different from most of the other, you know, when you see those hazy, juicy, definitely juicy IPAs, um, people are looking for, you know, consistency. People are looking for that juice. People are definitely looking. For a depth of flavor and so seeing micro or craft breweries being able to consistently produce a juicy, hazy New England IPA that tastes the same every time you open one of those is definitely a benchmark for our industry. So yeah, the juice bombs, that's what people are looking for, and I'd say that's 100%. We own that in New England, so.

Speaker 1 [04:43] And a lot of your definitions you're talking about the flavor, the taste profile, how much does the actual visual of it being hazy matter right now?

Speaker 2 [04:53] I mean, I, for us, I think it, it, it's, it's very important. I mean, you know, and we're, we're one of those breweries that's guilty of filling a glass it looks like yellow paint, but, um, that's what people like and you know I, I think it's. That's the 1st, 1st thing they see and it's like, oh wow, you know, and kind of on, on what Naveen was saying, I mean, they see that and they're like, oh, this is, this looks juicy, right? Based on what they've had before, maybe.

Speaker 3 [05:19] Same here. I spoke about this before, yeah, like, we made a, uh, non-hazy, very juicy IPA and at least in our case, the customers were like, dude, why, what happened here? I'm like, Yeah, so the, the, the haziness matters a lot. At the same time we have seen some of the great, um, IPAs from Vermont, like, uh, they are not that hazy, which are the classic new IPAs, but Somehow that's OK, but for a, for a newer brewery to come out with a not very hazy looking IPA, then that's, it gets tough to for the customers.

Speaker 2 [05:58] I think with what he was saying too, I mean those Vermont IPAs, if you will, I think back in the day they were hazy, right, but as with a lot of the other things that we've all done, we've just pushed the limits further and further and further, and now you know it's clearly defined the category, I think.

Speaker 4 [06:15] I think we've seen a bit of a, a bit of a change at our, at our taproom location because we have, you know, such a really, uh, broad range of consumers who come in because we've got, you know, a, you know, a huge, uh, Range of people that work that are local that work in the area but also every tourist in Boston walks by our front door and at least half of them walk in so people have a, you know, a different threshold for what they're willing to try when they see 20 lines available too so we may have, I, I think we may see a little more leeway with that, but I still. Can't in good conscience call anything a hazy or a New England if it's not hazy, and to me that haze, I have to hold up my fingers on the other side of the glass and If I can see them distinctively, it's not, it's not in that category, then it can, it can be, it can still be maybe a juicy IPA, but it's not going to fall into a hazy or a New England definition because you should not have that, that definition. It doesn't have to look like, and it never should look like, you know, like you just, yeah, it shouldn't, well, it shouldn't look like a true. It shouldn't look like you pulled it off the bottom of the tank, but it should, you know, but you can see your fingers as one big mass. And then, and then that that that passes muster.

Speaker 5 [07:28] And our New England IPA is definitely what Naveen was talking about. It's, you can, you can see through it. It stands up next to our West Coast, our East Coast. They're pretty close to it, but it does still have that flavor. It's full, but it is not that hazy, and it does fit more in line with those those Vermont ones, the Vermont IPs that he was talking about. So we're definitely the outlier on what our IPA is, the one that we released to the wild, the ones that are in our taproom. You pour it out and you're looking at it and you're like, yeah, that's what I'm talking about. So we definitely have both of them, but what we send out, you know, we have a couple out there right now that we do, you know, there are those hazy ones, but the taproom is a much better place where we can test what the customer really wants. And so when we pour it out of the draft and people just start smiling, you know that's that's what they're looking for and they know that's that New England IPA that they're, they're assuming it's that juicy beer and when they get it, it is. But when you look at our don't worry, it definitely is on the other side of that spectrum.

Speaker 1 [08:19] Now Kimberly, before you were at Worm Town, you were at Tree House for a while and that place was known for the style and for people lining up and waiting to get their hands on the beer. What was it that created that literal haze craze that you see from consumers like the ones going to Tree House?

Speaker 5 [08:37] I'd have to say that consistency is the biggest thing again just that beer every time you opened one of those beers, it consistently tastes like what you were expecting and so managing that expectation by being able to consistently brew a beer that's what you expect, that's big for a consumer, uh, doing it on a small system and growing up into a bigger system, you know, even Worm To did that went from a small system to a big system and you know and she was there for that, um, so. So you know, being able for a brewery to be able to continuously brew what the customer's expecting, that's a big deal. Uh, why people lined up at Tree House for those beers I don't know, mystery. I can't say for sure, but, um, you know, every time you open a Julius it was a Julius but it's the same thing with, you know, all of our beers basically when you open those beers they're consistent and that's, I think, what puts some of those beers ahead of the rest, you know, that consistency for sure.

Speaker 1 [09:24] Now Megan, like Kimberly just mentioned, you were at Wormtown before Samuel Adams, and you were there when with the creation of Be Hoppy, when did you start to see that transition and what or what caused that transition from kind of looking for that West Coast to now more of the, the East Coast style?

Speaker 4 [09:39] I think I told this sort of funny story when we were chatting, uh, you know, last week before the, before we all got together here about when we transitioned from the original brewery on Park Avenue to the, the now current brewery on Shrewsbury Street. The old brewery did not have the, the bright tank did not have the capacity to cool below about 38 degrees, so we could just never get that beer bright and we didn't have any filters, we didn't do anything. So, Be Hoppy was always hazier than a lot of other beers, even though it was a West Coast profile IPA. When we got to the Shrewsbury Street location, new system, new chiller, the ability to actually cool our beers down to 33, get it to drop bright, it was fantastic. We matched the flavor profile, everything. We were so excited. We released the first batch of the public. And all we heard was What happened to our beer? You changed our beer because it lost that haze, and we hadn't done anything except in our minds we're thinking, but we made it. We finally made it the way we wanted to. We made it better. It's properly aged and bright, and we didn't we still didn't filter it, but The, the response was, you know, that, that profile, the, the, even though the taste hadn't changed, the visual aspect of it was still just as important as, you know, as the, you know, the aroma and taste and finish of it, and we had to then figure out how to kind of get that, you know, get that haze back in without changing the recipe too, and that was, it was a huge shock to us.

Speaker 1 [11:13] It's so funny how that the disconnect can sometimes happen between the industry knowledge and the consumer and if that matters sometimes um how do you see from that downtown Boston location are you seeing any shift back to looking for some of those fears?

Speaker 4 [11:30] We definitely see a, you know, a draw towards our, you know, our Pilsners, our West Coast IPAs, but we also have, again, such a broad range of visitors that we're going to have some, you know, we're going to try to have something for everyone and everyone's going to be willing to try a lot of different things. Uh, some of our hazy are going to be, you know, are going to be our big, our bigger draws. Generally, the fruited, uh, ones are going to be the biggest draws, but we see a lot of move when we have a West Coast style on. It definitely moves. Pilsners, they move, so it is really interesting to see the broad range of what people are interested in.

Speaker 1 [12:06] We're gonna talk a little bit more about kind of that difference in the on-premise desires versus off-premise in a second, um, but you know, vitamin C is one of the newer, is I think the youngest one on the stage right now. It, um, you also named within the top 5 breweries in Massachusetts the other day by Boston.com. When you opened, there was already a bunch of competition in the style space. What did you have to do to really stand out?

Speaker 2 [12:35] Well, we had to copy everybody else, right? Uh, no, kidding. Kind of. Um, I think for us, the big thing was we focused on Like that's what we were known for, right? We were known for our hazy IPAs when we were home brewing and basement brewing, whatever it was, and we were the, the 5 years ago, 67 years ago was a was a a really magical time in IPAs here, especially in New England, right? You know, you had Vermont and Maine and then you had Treehouse and Trillium and, and it was like people were all looking for the next thing, and you know, and what's what, where do I not have to drive as far to, and I think we kind of checked that box being on the South Shore. Where people didn't have to drive 3-4 hours away to get it, um, and not that we're comparing ourselves to anyone else but you know. We, we, we made something that was comparable enough, I think, and I think for us to, um, having the taproom experience which a lot of other people. Might not have had or you know there were different things going on and focusing also on on um. You know the hospitality aspect of it too, I think that's what Back and tell their friends and you know, you gotta go check this place out.

Speaker 1 [13:49] Let's talk about the off-premise for a second, and we know most of the data from about hazy IPAs because of scan data, because of what we're seeing in the off-premise. Naveen, cloud candy is Mighty Squirrel's top selling beer in that space. It's been around for a minute now. How are you sustaining demand when you, you know, we're seeing that there might be some of that leveling out or maturity in the market?

Speaker 3 [14:16] Ashley, um, when we launched Cloud Candy. Four years back at that time, the ABB was 6.5%. And that ABB was at least in the from a distribution perspective, was on the lower end of the spectrum for IPA. Things have changed, yeah, like, um, so, so she would at the same time what what I'm finding out is that actually in our, in our tap room. When we released the lower ABV IPAs like 5.8 or 6. Compared to releasing a new double IPA, those lower ABV IPAs now are significantly outselling. Any of the higher ABV IPAs, but in distribution somehow Arika. It's cloud candy. I don't know. This, this is, I think actually what happens is that, um, um. When somebody comes to the taproom, they have made a decision to go to Mighty Squirrel. Now when they are inside Mighty Squirrel, now they have a bit more time on their hands because they want to explore different options, right? And they're seeing what's new and what's exciting. And if there are two new things, they go for lower ABV IPA on that site we have seen. But in distribution. Once they walk into a superstore or any place they go, on average they have 345 beers in front of them. So sometimes it could be slightly intimidating or sometimes they get like, you know what, listen, they want to play, they play more safe and they go out for retail, uh, compared to they they become more adventurous when they come to the taproom. So in retail, somehow cloud candy is still. Majority of our sales, but in taproom we are seeing that much different.

Speaker 1 [15:57] Dino, you in Massachusetts at least are focused only on kind of your own premise sales. You're not going out to retailers. Why have you avoided that space for your home market?

Speaker 2 [16:09] Again, I think it's been part of just we haven't had to, right? Like we've been fortunate that people like to come and visit and. We built a beautiful space there and again I I think focusing on that customer experiences has been important for us and I think even more so going forward that's really the the the people that understand the hospitality aspect of this and understand that yeah the beer has to be great but also it's about that customer experience and it's about getting people to come in and tell, tell people and bring them back and I think that's that's super super important and then we've also. You know, always had, had, uh, uh, the problem of never having enough beer too, I guess, um, so that, that kind of stalled things for us as well.

Speaker 1 [16:51] Kimberly, for Warehamtown, what are you seeing consumers are asking for in the off-premise specifically when it comes to like package or ABV? What does that look like?

Speaker 5 [17:00] Everyone wants a 192 over 8%. I mean that's what we're, what we're seeing those high ABV beers that they want their bang for their buck. They wanna take their, their cans, they wanna go home, um, so the higher the ABV and the bigger the vessel, they feel like they're getting that, you know, what they're looking for, you know, we also see a lot of demand for the. Variety pack and we've just launched one of our first variety packs. The second one is on the way out and that's actually a fun way for us to take some of the beers that did pretty well in our taproom because we've got that that those people who are coming in and they're telling us, Hey, we really like this. OK, well now it's easy for us to put in a 12 ounce can, throw it in a mixed pack, and see how those do and see what that feedback is as well. But in your taproom. Those people are in front of you. You have face to face contact. You can get the information directly from the consumer without having to go through, you know, 2nd and 3rd parties to know what that customer wants. So the second, you know, out of our first variety pack, we were able to isolate one of those beers that could stand next to me hoppy on the shelf, whether it's a 19-2 or another, you know, 16 ounce or what comes out of that. And our second variety pack, we were able to put in. A bunch of different styles again a range of IPAs, you know, the different styles of IPAs, tropicals and high EBVs and whatnot, and then we get to see what comes out of that as well. So we have a little bit of a way to figure out through our taproom, but also through the consumer base we can play and have fun, but yeah, we definitely know that everyone wants a 19.2 at 8% or more, maybe 9%. I don't know, not me though.

Speaker 1 [18:23] We have an audience question that speaks to something we were talking about earlier before we started, um, I'm gonna paraphrase a little bit here, but you know New England IPAs are sometimes I don't wanna say looked down upon, but aren't as appreciated as much by people who are in the industry where you wanna drink some other things, maybe some lagers, you know, some pilsners in there. Um, do you feel that the New England IPA is more of a money grab or do you feel the style is an important part of beer history now? Any takers?

Speaker 3 [18:54] I'm not

Speaker 4 [18:54] touching this one. I'll, I'll, I'll take it. At least I'll start the home team right now. Um, I mean, I'll admit when I was originally, originally in the, in the camp of, you know, hazy IPA is lazy IPA and this is before I started working on it, so this was, you know, very long, a very long time ago, uh, because they were the examples were hit or miss and once I started working on the project at, you know, with Jim's direction, you remember. Um, I started to really realize just how difficult they were to make and to make well, so it actually just, just from getting to know the What I understood the style to be at the time, getting to know it better, it actually developed my respect for the style quite a bit. So one examples that are well made, I think have really, they, they have defined a category. They have, they have evolved from, they, they haven't made other, you know, they haven't made West Coast style IPA obsolete at all. I think they have, you know, clearly evolved into. You know, a, a unique standalone category, whether you call it IPA or not. However, if, if you don't want to use that same designation, it is, it is its own very clear style and I think it really has, it's, it's not just a grab, it's, I mean, we're looking at probably near 10 years into when people started really talking about East Coast. Style IPAs as a thing. And They're still here and they're and they are evolving, so I think it is, it is clearly its own, its own style that's Still evolving, but it's not going away.

Speaker 1 [20:37] Any other thoughts? That was pretty well said, well, well done tackling that question. Um, you know, let's move on to the on-premise for a second or to your own premise as well. Naveen mentioned that there's a difference between what you're seeing in off-premise demand versus on-premise demand. Are you all seeing that difference as well?

Speaker 5 [21:00] Definitely, uh, you know, we have a lot of people who come to our tap room and they want those Pilsners, those cos that, you know, those light crispy beers, and then we send them out to the wild and they flop and we're like, wait, why, why is this happening? So it's, it's definitely a different type of, uh, consumer but also those consumers who come into our tap room, they're, they're not committing to a 4 pack, they're not committing to a 12 pack, they're not committing to. A 6 pack they're committing to 6 ounces, 8 ounces, maybe a 12 ounce. So their confidence level is high because they're maybe only if they don't like it, it's $8 compared to maybe more than double or having this beer that's taking up precious fridge space where they could be bringing home a beer that they enjoyed. So I think that they're definitely more adventurous. They're more confident in what they're able to get. Also they can get a flight. You know, flights are a great way for the consumers to be able to try out anything and then sometimes when they go back they'll grab a whole, you know, 16 ounce or whatever, but then once they see it in the store, oh, I had that, that was good, and they remember it and it's also about, you know, sending brand ambassadors out into the world and kind of like, you know, getting people. Feet on the street kind of a bit a little bit grassroots, um, there is a lot of people who come to taprooms specifically to try something new, but when you have, uh, you know, the like Morham town we have both taprooms and we have, you know, grocery stores and liquor stores and all over the place, so getting, you know, some grassroots, you know, people out on the street, that's definitely helpful for us too, but the taproom has a very, very different demand for sure.

Speaker 1 [22:26] Do you know, are you seeing that? I mean, you are not in distro in Massachusetts, but what does that demand look like at your locations?

Speaker 2 [22:33] Well, I, I think for us like we, we have a small pilot system which is great and it allows us to be creative. I mean, I'm not going to make 30 barrels of a marshmallow lager, but I might take a chance with 1 or 2 barrels, right? So, um, so I, I think having that, that flexibility allows us to really test things, get them in the taproom, really see the, the consumer response to it and say, all right, yeah, you know, this is something that we want to scale up and package and, and get out in the wild.

Speaker 1 [23:00] Naveen, is there a particular balance that you found of how many hazy or New England IPAs you should have on tab or how, what diversity you should have on the menu?

Speaker 3 [23:11] Um, yeah, actually, uh, the taproom, right, yeah, taproom again, it's a whole different place from distribution, but in taproom right now we have 20 VS exactly on the on the menu, all of which, uh, 5 are IPAs, 15 are other things, and then taproom, oh yeah, the, the customers will try everything which you make, they will love it, but moment you sell it out for distribution. Somehow actually that people, at least in our case we have seen that people still gravitate towards in distribution. They want to buy the IPAs. Uh, last year we got the gold medal for GABF for the October 1st in distribution. It's cloud candy, yeah, doesn't matter. Gold medal, yeah, great, but distribution is all cloud candy here. We sent out the BS, but the, yeah, so taproom is here. Taproom people are more creative, more so in much more than in distribution.

Speaker 4 [24:06] We also see for us in the downtown taproom we also see, you know, you're definitely a lot more creative. We actually probably have, we have fewer IPAs on than that and they're not all, they're not always going to all be hazy. We may have, you know, 3 to 4, uh, you know, among, among the 20 lines. Uh, we definitely see a huge movement, you know, at, at our location on. You know, on, on the lighter beers, on, you know, surprisingly, I mean, you know, light lager is not a surprise, but, um, but even, you know, even like a, you know, a multi beer, uh, we haven't had our, the Boston Brick red on for a little while and I hear it all the time from people walking in asking like, what, where is it? they're so disappointed that that isn't there because that is, again, it's, it's one of those Hallmark beers, it's a, but it's a multi, it's a multi-unique experience. So we see, we see a good amount of movement on, Kind of the uncomplicated beers as well too. Like those will really just fly anytime there's a Pilsner, gone in 60 seconds. Um, but also some of our really experimental beers, uh, you know, will, will, you know, fly at that same rate.

Speaker 1 [25:09] Kimberly, this question also ties into an audience question, but how much does the feedback that you're getting from the on-premise and what people are drinking there impact the off-premise decisions that Worm To's making?

Speaker 5 [25:23] The feedback that we get in the tap room is really important to what we decide to do, um, it, it really does help us, uh, to figure out what direction the customer wants because obviously that's why we're here we wanna give customers the beer that they want to drink so being able to test that out in our tap room where we hear you we wanna listen to you because we obviously don't want. Put a beer out there that nobody's going to drink. So when we hear more of those hazey and more, you know, whatever the customers, consumers wanting sours or whatnot, we definitely take that back to our brewers. Our brewers will experiment. Some R&D goes on. We have a pilot system over at Foxborough so we can do some of those smaller batches that Dino was also saying so we can put it. Build something, brew something and put it out to the tap room and see if that, if it really does stick. Uh, we're lucky in that manner where we can experiment that way, put it in the tap room and get direct feedback, and that direct feedback does go directly to our brewers, and they take that feedback and they, they play with it. So yeah, it's really important to have that the consumer giving us, uh, what they want for sure.

Speaker 2 [26:23] If I can add something, of course you want a humbling experience, put Blue Spirulina in a double IPA, and I'll tell you, if you don't listen to the feedback after that, um, you're in the wrong business. So I mean, short of death threats, uh, you, you definitely, uh, you want to listen to the consumer.

Speaker 1 [26:39] They're passionate people. Uh, sticking with you for a second, Dino, just looking at some of the things that you have on tap right now, a lot of your IPAs are within that 7 to 8% range, but you also have a 4.5% sessional IPA going on right now. Are consumers asking for those kind of lower APA, in New England or hazy IPAs?

Speaker 2 [26:59] Yeah, with, with taprooms coming back, people want to be able to spend more time there, and you know, you come in and you drink 8 9%, you're, you're good, but. With the 4, 4.5% people can have a couple of them still feel pretty good and, and, uh, kind of go on their merry way and, and they're OK, you know. So yeah, we're, we're definitely things are creeping down, you know, 4, 3.5 and we'll see where it goes from there.

Speaker 1 [27:23] Are you all also seeing some sort of shifts in what people are looking for in ABV? Nadine, you wanna start?

Speaker 3 [27:29] Yeah, just one thing which we have, which we have noticed is that um, yeah, they want lower ABV, but they want IPA. They don't want session IPA, for heaven's sake, I can have a 5.3% IPA. Sounds like awesome, right? If I have a 5.6% pale ale. Nope. such an IPA might such the thing is that the and and customers have become much more open to the idea of calling it IPA and having lower APB, but uh, but yeah, like they want the word IPA, not such an IPA, but full IPA, but have lower APB, but the lowest I've gone for is like 5.7. I haven't tried beyond the below underneath that, but

Speaker 4 [28:14] We definitely see a draw towards the lower, the lower ABV beers. That doesn't mean the higher aren't moving as well too, but there's definitely, especially this, this time of year and at the taproom setting, people do want to drink. They, they want to have that, that sessionable experience. They still want a lot of flavor, but they want. To be able to sit there for, you know, for 3 or 4 beers and then be able to get up and then enjoy the rest of their day or evening. So we do see a lot even with the hobby beers, uh, we have a, a hazy session on right now that's 4.5% and that moves very well if you can, you, if, if you reach the, the right people at the right moment again it just some of it depends on luck and timing and who's just walked in the door as well too and what they're looking for.

Speaker 5 [28:57] Didn't they just gonna echo everything that they just said. They either want high ABV in a big vessel or they want low ABV and don't call it a session, I guess, because I kind of like they don't wanna hear that. But yeah, that we definitely see the same exact thing whether it's out in the wild or right in our own tap room.

Speaker 3 [29:13] Just one more thing to add actually on that is gonna be, uh, I think it might depend on the location of the brewery also or tap room like uh because actually in our case we we do we are involved in so we attract a lot of families and a lot of people who are like, uh, they wanna stay there for a few hours right actually and, and they wanna be able to drive back in the same way, right? So they in general we have triple IPAs but they don't. Sell much in our space. They they they want to have a lower ABV beer, enjoy a few for 2-3 hours and drive back. So audience also matters. But maybe if I'm opening in downtown with next to a college place, then it might be a different situation there.

Speaker 1 [29:55] We have another audience question that's a little bit spicy. And I'm gonna paraphrase this one too, but they're talking about how, you know, New England IPA shouldn't even really be considered a real IPA. Has it confused consumers and they're when they order one they're expecting this sort of hazy thing and get confused when they get that clear beer or beverage. Um, the question is should we maybe try to educate the consumer more or consider renaming or, uh, at least properly calling it a New England IPA to start to teach consumers the difference.

Speaker 2 [30:32] You you want me to do this one? All right, I, I, I mean, I, I think what we do, uh, a good part of it is educating the consumer. We can't just assume that everybody walks in the door has had these types of beers before, and I, I think that goes again back to the hospitality aspect of it. I think we have to, we have to do that. We, we can't just assume that everybody knows what they're, what they're drinking, you know, everybody has that aha moment and it'd be great to be able to educate them so that they can appreciate it and not feel intimidated and. And want to enjoy these types of beers. I don't think they should, you know, stop making them because of that. That's ridiculous. I'd be out of business.

Speaker 1 [31:10] Anyone else have anything

Speaker 4 [31:11] to add? And again, this, this comes back to like, you know, history, like, you know, history and, and styles and expectations, but a lot of the people that we, that we do see that are gravitated towards the, you know, the, the hazy style of IPA are not traditional IPA drinkers. So they have, they're, they're maybe newer to beer, newer to craft beer, uh, especially, and newer to these flavor profiles. So, you know, they're not necessarily confused as long as we clarify. I mean, it's, you know, I don't just lump everything into. An IPA is an IPA is an IPA because they're not anymore. It is not, it is not one definable category. There are subcategories. There are, there are ever growing subcategories at, at this point of what we. In the brewing world identify as fall as falling into, you know, India pale ale of some sort. So, you know, as long as we identify them clearly, it is, it is kind of up to us too to still, to still continue educating as well, you know, like, like Dino said.

Speaker 1 [32:17] So the last a little under 10 minutes left here, let's talk about what comes next and I know we can't all predict the future, um, but one of the things that we've heard Bart Watson from the VA talk about a lot is the best way to gauge what the next trend could be is look at what the youngest legal drinking age consumers are drinking. Have any of you noticed that that demographic, do they care about this type of beer style? What are they looking for? Should we expect this to continue with them?

Speaker 3 [32:48] So the one, so the one thing which we have observed is that um We can speak all about the notes of the beer, the aromas and everything else, but the newer generation, it has to be more on the face machines if you have the name, uh, like they would drop more, they, they might be more inclined towards having a grapefruit IPA or a. You know, pineapple IPA compared to having IPA with pineapple and papaya notes, uh, we made a beer called the Grove Shack, um, and, uh, which was with the blood orange, and that beer was released in January, in the worst month, but it just flew away like that beer in distribution. And yeah, so she, so calling out the calling out the um. Adding the fruits and calling all the fruits on the brand name goes, uh, at least so far from N equal to 1, worked out really well.

Speaker 4 [33:50] I think I would second that, uh, we see, we see, you know, fruit as a definite big trend and not just the implied fruit from hops anymore. You know, the, you know, actual fruits and not the, you know, the, the traditional citrus that, you know, that we've associated, you know, with a lot of, you know, a lot of hop-type characteristics, but we see a, you know, a lot of the, not just milkshake, but just, you know, but fruits added in really are a, you know, a, a very big mover and that seems to kind of track with, you know, a younger generation that has That has grown up drinking a lot of sweeter drinks. You see it in a lot of the other drink choices that they make, you know, the other alcoholic beverages aside from beer tend to be, you know, tend to be sweeter, tend to be, you know, and that makes them a lot easier drinking. So whether it is low alcohol, higher alcohol, they can, they can enjoy the process and, and the experience, I think, a little, a little more easily, at least that's what it seems. So that seems to be, you know, uh, an evolving trend with, with the newer to craft beer drinker at least.

Speaker 1 [34:50] Any difference of opinions or this pretty much on track with everybody

Speaker 5 [34:55] on track with everyone, but we've seen a little bit of shift in the younger drinker alone, not wanting to come out and a lot of people who turned 21 during COVID. They had to take their beer and go home, so we're getting different feedback because we don't have that younger person sitting in our taproom enjoying. When I turned 21, I was like, I am going out, you know, that's where we wanted to be. We wanted to be seen drinking. People are grabbing their 4 packs. There's a lot of brand loyalty too. They're drinking what their older friends were drinking. They're drinking what they've seen on social media. They're drinking what you know, maybe not what their parents are drinking, but they're drinking what their older friends are drinking, you know, we're in the city, so we have a lot of like people can walk, you can Uber to the taproom and stuff like that, but people are also going around the corner to their, you know, favorite liquor store and they're grabbing that 4 pack and they're heading home so it's a little bit harder to gauge. Some of that information now because they're not, they're not comfortable coming out yet and hopefully we'll see them come back in the taprooms come to life and whatnot, but for now, you know, it's the younger demographics we're not, we're not seeing them as much as we were expecting to or when I was 21, which was forever ago, so.

Speaker 2 [35:58] I, I think a couple things is obviously lower and, and no AB ABV um beer is, is obviously growing in popularity and like what Kim was saying as far as just the easily having this stuff accessible they wanna have a knock on the window and open it up and somebody's there to deliver their beer for them. They, they don't wanna come out um and then also, you know, obviously we've seen cocktails on the rise and, and spirits have have continued to grow and. You know, is there a way to capture that in these fruited beers where we can recreate these classic cocktails but doing them in a in a beer format.

Speaker 1 [36:33] Final question here, are we gonna have to start caring about IBUs again? Are consumers going to be shifting that pendulum back?

Speaker 3 [36:41] The one thing which we have seen in our taproom is that uh we don't we launched the Pacific Coast Time, which is a West Coast IPA that came here from San Diego before, so I love, I love those and uh it did really well. It did really well. It was 7.2%, which is the high ABV for most any IPAs, but it was Pacific Coast time and it's a West Coast IPA, and, and it was nothing as on your face as my favorite beers from, uh, you know, like a stone or from somebody else, but, but still it was really. Well received. So go figure, right? On one side we keep saying that they want to have the juicy, juicy New England IPA, but at the same time if you have all of 5 IPAs, you have one West Coast IPA. Somehow, at least in the tap room, they were like, wow, they, they did really well.

Speaker 5 [37:33] For us to be happy is the West Coast and that is our flagship and that beer sells like crazy so we I definitely see that people are looking for maybe that higher IVU. And maybe that crispier West Coast style citrusy flavor, um, you know, is it the color of the beer that drives people towards, you know, the, the East Coast style whatnot? I, I don't know for sure, but people are definitely wanting, uh, flavor whether it's that, that bitter flavor or that fruity flavor they want flavorful beers they don't want just watered down flat flavor. They want complexity. They want the diversity in their beers and you can definitely the consumer is very loud about that.

Speaker 1 [38:11] Megan, you're gonna start focusing more on those IBUs?

Speaker 4 [38:16] I don't think that the IBU wars probably aren't coming back like that. We're not going to see the wars coming back, but definitely a focus on on bitterness that means something too, because our hazy styles, they have plenty of BUs if you look at them analytically, but there's still something very experiential that's different with, you know, with a West Coast style IPA that's also very pleasant. You've got to find, find that balance, make that experience, and there is still a very, a very good market for that.

Speaker 1 [38:47] You cranking them up at all, do you know? A

Speaker 2 [38:49] little bit, uh, I, I, I feel like we've let California creep back into this thing and we need to stand fast and, and, and keep the wall, but, uh, no, listen, we, we, we brewed 100 IBU beer back in the spring and, uh, thankfully it's gone, but, um, it, it's, it, I'm really torn and there's not enough time for all this, but. Um, I, I, I think that definitely has a, has a place in the market, and it's, I listen, I, I enjoy drinking them myself, but I, I also have to remember that there's that person that still comes in and says, I hate I I, I hate IPAs. What do you have? And you hand them a New England IPA and they're like, I love this. What is it? It's an IPA, so. I'm torn.

Speaker 1 [39:30] So what we've learned from this discussion is, uh, maybe we need to focus more on being Massachusetts and get California out of here a little bit that's what I my lesson is, um, I think that's it for our panel can we have a round of applause for our panelists? Thank you guys so much.